January 1st 2012.

[Ernest]

Beautiful pictures as always David. We're all counting on you to help carry us through these bleak winter months. My day is never complete until I've seen some pictures of your fabulous rooftop garden.

Erny

[helixturnhelix]

Woah CG is trying to reach the cosmos, using blooms as fuel! 

[Darkhorse]

Nothing to share from me lately, but WOW David!  Your photos have been outstanding!  I'm so jealous of your climate!! 

And Lou, the seedling is gorgeous. 

[Doll]

David, your Cosmic Gold is out of this world.

Blooms are few and far between for me these days. Had a nice High Voltage today.

[Nievesgirl]

All pics taken by Bf

 Satsuma again Look at how thick petals are


Island Girl  with Jasmine relaxing in Cali sun


Island girl again

[farmer d]

Darren and Erny, one of the challenges in growing hibiscus is the time lag between cause and effect. What you are seeing now is most likely caused by the cold snap we experienced a couple of weeks ago. Same type of time lag happens with insect attacks followed by spraying the plants. The whole process sort of happens in slow motion with effect following cause in due course but rarely showing immediately. It makes for an interesting challenge to figure out what is going on and why.

Charlie

Thank you Charlie for pointing out the time lag challenge.  I have given this a lot of thought this winter and am observing every change I can and noting the time frames involved.  So far what I am seeing is that the time lag seems even more spread out than I would have originally thought which I was guessing at a couple of weeks on average.

For instance you can see in today's pics that Acapulco Gold is showing some decent colors again just the last few days.  Prosperity has been looking like it's old self for about a week now too.  The weather has been sunny and warm since 12/24 so it would make sense after about 3 weeks of great weather that I would see things start to swing back the other way now.  Back then all my plants looked very strong as if it were still summer, just having trouble opening blooms with a month and a half of cold weather.  Probably the first sign of cold stress then which has been showing up more and more each week since.

Now I'm taking off many yellow leaves and am seeing lots of dropped buds on my plants (below 50% now make it).  So I guess somewhere around 3-4 weeks seems to be the time frame I am seeing for climate effects to show up.

It looks like our weather pattern might be shifting again to a colder and rainy stretch so I am curious to see if that happens if the warm weather effects will show up even though the current weather at that time would be wintry.  

This is really helpful for me to identify if negative changes I am seeing are the result of winter lag time effects or something more urgent such as over watering or spider mites though I know they are really low key this time of year.

Gorgeous Acapulco Gold & Prosperity today...




Farmer D

[davidwood]

All pics taken by Bf

 Satsuma again Look at how thick petals are


Island Girl  with Jasmine relaxing in Cali sun


Island girl again

Great photo and just love that dog Kerry, she looks so content. Thanks everyone for all the nice comments on Cosmic Gold, it is a wonderful sight and I cant believe my luck. I am just hoping I have a few blooms on January 23rd, its a hugely important day here, the same as Xmas Day at home if not bigger and it will be a joy for me to cut and give away a bloom to my closest Vietnamese friends.

[davidwood]

Fantastic Darren, Prosperity is my favourite of yours to see.

Darren you may be interested to hear this, can you remember a few weeks ago there was a discussion about pot size, and how all the experts say you should move up slowly rather than start in a big pot, like you I questioned it thinking it would replicate whats in the ground if you just start of in a bigger pot and its what I have been doing.
Well yesterday I found out maybe why they say what they do and its better to slowly increase pot size as it grows.
I had an accident with my Peppermint Drop and the pot got broken, when I broke away all of the pot I was not left with a root ball making it easy to just place in another pot, what I had was a 2 foot stack of potting mix with 70% of the roots concentrated in the bottom 3 or 4 inches of the pot and very little in between the top and bottom, now apart from this not being healthy for the plant it made it impossible to pick up as a whole, when I did the bottom roots just all fell away and now I am hoping it will re-take in its new pot, its all looking very limp at the moment.

Having seen how roots behave in the pot  I will never again start my plants straight of in a bigger pot, I will slower increase the pot size, still live and learn I suppose.

[farmer d]

David thank you for sharing that experience with us.  With what you said in mind my question becomes why does the plant want to send out the main roots far out instead of creating a more symmetrical root ball first with many roots?

When I have moved a few of my in ground plants around in the past that seemed like they were establishing themselves pretty well in their original spots I noticed that they had a few main big roots that traveled pretty far away from the plant (similar if not the same to what you saw).

Is this a normal rooting trait for hibiscus if left to naturally root the way they are genetically programmed to?  If so what has happened over time to make the hibiscus genetically programmed to root this way?  What advantage does it serve?  Or does how a hibiscus root also vary like how different CVs have varied above ground growth patterns?

My rookie attempt to come with some answer ideas:
If I am a system of things that work together synergistically and my upper half is growing tall and gaining a lot of weight with each passing day would it make sense to grow deeper to offset being too top heavy which can put the plant in lethal danger of being unable to hold itself up by the roots?  I'm thinking in hibiscus' plants long past they came from areas of the world with well draining soils so that leads me to think that the original environment's soil might have been looser in composition forcing them to send out strong and long roots quickly to anchor the plant?  Also if they naturally prefer a more shady or dappled shade area to grow then I would also think that in that situation the plant is going to grow more tall and lanky in the search for some sunlight adding to the need for deeper roots to anchor.

Man I hope I don't cause another uproar on here like with the fert posts...

Here is a good example of what probably would never happen naturally in regards to proportional above & below ground growth (unless your a palm tree or redwood tree).  Still amazing that a plant can put out like this with so little room to live.



I'm thinking out loud here so forgive me but I am really curious about what these plants are trying to naturally do so that I can better approach their needs in the outdoors.  

I currently have a pretty big Caribbean Beauty in the large sized pot you saw pics of earlier this summer.  I got it as a well established plant at the end of summer and I want to see what it can do in a big pot.  You know my goal is to replicate the results with my in ground monster plants.  I have one big advantage over you with the potted plants and the rooting situation which is I don't need to move them around putting them at risk of being broken and then needing to repot.  I bought some shade cloth that I will unroll on a daily basis when needed to protect them from hot direct sunlight on my porch so they can stay put.

OK go ahead and grill me...I'm ready!

Farmer D

[blupit007]

Kerry, I know.... I think it's the short days we have here that are taking a toll on some of my cv's.  That and I sometimes let them dry out a bit more then they should.  Been really busy and my poor babies were getting the back seat unfortunately.   I am hoping for the best.  Your dog is adorable!  Is she a pitie?  

Darren, awesome AG!  holy cow!

[helixturnhelix]

Since you are referring to my disagreement with your fertilization technique, I will just provide you with some sources that will lead your "roots" to the right information:

Hydrotropism gene regulation:
 http://www.pnas.org/content/104/11/4724

Hydrotopism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1838587/

[farmer d]

Chris thank you for providing those links.  That is some fascinating research about what drives root growth.  I do not have anywhere near the scientific background you have so I'm doing my best to apply what is there.  Just fantastic to learn more and more each day with these plants (and plants in general).

It sounds like roots are more dominated by the over powering effects of gravity rather than a more balanced combination of water and gravity.  I would not have even figured phototropism could be a factor for root development even if a very small one.

I wonder with my heavy wet clay soil how hydrotropism might actually work if the soil is actually too saturated and the roots need to breathe more.  I wonder if those long roots I'm seeing are searching for a better drained area along with countering the weight of the plant?

I know with my giant Valentines Day I moved it early on and was amazed at the super long main root that was pretty much growing horizontally for over two feet away from the plant.  Now that plant naturally has a lot of horizontal growth so makes sense to me to see that sort of root development (gravitropic?).

Other plants I wanted to move like Sea of Tranquility, Cindy's Heart and Midsummer Night had a much more straight down root growth to the point that I couldn't entirely remove them from the ground (root went too deep) so I just replaced as much soil around them as I could for better drainage.  So again I'm thinking with the way those plants grow more upright that would be more gravitropic?

I know it is not this simple but every piece helps me out more and more.  And please understand I just want to keep things flowing smoothly here - we all are learning so much from each other and I really appreciate you taking the time to share with us your knowledge and access to the latest cutting edge information.

Farmer D

[davidwood]

David thank you for sharing that experience with us. With what you said in mind my question becomes why does the plant want to send out the main roots far out instead of creating a more symmetrical root ball first with many roots?

When I have moved a few of my in ground plants around in the past that seemed like they were establishing themselves pretty well in their original spots I noticed that they had a few main big roots that traveled pretty far away from the plant (similar if not the same to what you saw).

Is this a normal rooting trait for hibiscus if left to naturally root the way they are genetically programmed to?  If so what has happened over time to make the hibiscus genetically programmed to root this way? What advantage does it serve?  Or does how a hibiscus root also vary like how different CVs have varied above ground growth patterns?

My rookie attempt to come with some answer ideas:
If I am a system of things that work together synergistically and my upper half is growing tall and gaining a lot of weight with each passing day would it make sense to grow deeper to offset being too top heavy which can put the plant in lethal danger of being unable to hold itself up by the roots?  I'm thinking in hibiscus' plants long past they came from areas of the world with well draining soils so that leads me to think that the original environment's soil might have been looser in composition forcing them to send out strong and long roots quickly to anchor the plant?  Also if they naturally prefer a more shady or dappled shade area to grow then I would also think that in that situation the plant is going to grow more tall and lanky in the search for some sunlight adding to the need for deeper roots to anchor.

Man I hope I don't cause another uproar on here like with the fert posts...

Here is a good example of what probably would never happen naturally in regards to proportional above & below ground growth (unless your a palm tree or redwood tree).  Still amazing that a plant can put out like this with so little room to live.



I'm thinking out loud here so forgive me but I am really curious about what these plants are trying to naturally do so that I can better approach their needs in the outdoors.  

I currently have a pretty big Caribbean Beauty in the large sized pot you saw pics of earlier this summer.  I got it as a well established plant at the end of summer and I want to see what it can do in a big pot.  You know my goal is to replicate the results with my in ground monster plants.  I have one big advantage over you with the potted plants and the rooting situation which is I don't need to move them around putting them at risk of being broken and then needing to re pot.  I bought some shade cloth that I will unroll on a daily basis when needed to protect them from hot direct sunlight on my porch so they can stay put.

OK go ahead and grill me...I'm ready!

Farmer D

I think Darren the problem is that plants in pots do grow the same as they would in the ground [sending out long roots], but because its in a pot you need to stop that not encourage it, in the ground having no restriction they don't start wrapping themselves around something like they can in the bottom of a pot, something that does happen in a pot and is known to cause problems [that's why we root prune I suppose], and maybe even have the possibility of the very lowest roots sitting in water.
 So to overcome these problems they advise growing in smaller pots and increase slowly and root prune, and not just for Hibs, I have seen it written many times for other plants [ they dont like wet feet etc], truth is I suppose plants aren't really meant to be in pots, but if you do grow in a pot this is the sort of tried and tested best way to do it.
Like I wrote I am only saying what I saw and can now understand why they say it, by trying to replicate in a pot how they grow in the ground is not a good idea for a healthy plant, and with years of experience in pot growing that's why they say it.

As for Peppermint Drop I was a bit unlucky, the fact that its so compact was the problem, the wind hit it and it blew over, other cv's of similar size the wind would blow through, but with PD it acted like a sail and nearly took off.

[Charlie]

Farmer D, to complicate matters further, it seems that in addition to the lag factor there is also a cumulative cold weather factor. I've seen hibiscus take 1 night at 30F with no big problems but 3 nights in a row at the same low temperature causes a lot more damage. This also appears to apply to cool weather such as nights in the upper 30's but the effects are slower to show. In other words, 2 months of low but not freezing temperatures appear to cause problems almost as bad as a few nights of sub-freezing temps. It's hard to sort it all out because of the lag factor but it is good that you are making close observations and trying to draw conclusions.

David, if your Peppermint Drop does not crisp up you may need to do some top pruning so that the top is in balance with the roots and both can regrow in a harmonious way.

Charlie

[Charlie]

Since you are referring to my disagreement with your fertilization technique, I will just provide you with some sources that will lead your "roots" to the right information:

Hydrotropism gene regulation:
 http://www.pnas.org/content/104/11/4724

Hydrotopism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1838587/

Chris, nice links but I'm not sure which posts you are referring to that describe or object to your fertilization technique. Also, since these links aren't about fertilizing I'm a bit confused.

However, the links themselves are fascinating and quite informative, particularly the second one which is worth a read by anyone interested in the science behind plant growth.

There are good examples of the tropisms (growth in response to influences such as light, water, gravity, etc) described in the articles readily available to people who have grown hibiscus in different ways and under different circumstances.

For instance, when any of us are growing hibiscus in pots it is very common to see, as David described with his pot of Peppermint Drop, that the roots quickly grow toward the bottom of the pot and then fill out at the bottom of the pot. This is because pots dry from the top down and the wettest soil is found at the bottom of the pot. This is even more so if there is a saucer used under the pot and excess water is allowed to stand in the saucer. This is an example of positive hydrotropism - the tendency of hibiscus roots to grow toward areas of more water availability. It is probably most pronounced in areas where there is a lot of water stress on the plants - meaning hot conditions.

Eventually, in pots that are watered adequately, the root system will fill in throughout the entire pot. David observed the Peppermint Drop in the broken pot before this could happen. The reason we do not recommend using a pot that is too large is that, as you saw, there is a lot of soil that is not being drained by the roots and that wet soil can become a location where pathogens can grow.

Another good example I have seen of tropism and hibiscus roots is when using time release fertilizer that is placed on the surface of the potting mix. You will find a mat of fine roots spread across of the surface of the soil as the roots grow toward this source of nutrients. Root development lower in the root ball can be inhibited in this situation. That is one reason we recommend use of both time release and water soluble fertilizers and making multiple planting holes for the time release rather than spreading it across the surface.

In the commercial setting, one of the most important things we teach workers is to make sure our pots receive sufficient water to wet the entire root ball. If that does not happen the drier soil at the bottom of the pot will become a negative tropism for the roots and they will grow away from this dry soil and the root ball will be restricted with the negative effect on growth that this causes.

Interesting discussion - thanks to all for the stimulating thoughts and observations.

Charlie