DESPERATE FOR HELP, Blisters and/or Black spots on the underside of leaves

[helixturnhelix]

Jordan, do not start pouring your antibiotics on your plants!  That is not going to do anything and will promote antibiotic resistance in the soil bacteria living in the pot.  Those genes could potentially get transferred to a human pathogen (via conjugation and plasmid transfer) which is how antibiotic resistant infections come to be!  MRSA, VRSA, etc came to be in a similar manner (not soil bacteria necessarily) but use of antibiotics in the wrong situation lead to these pathogens being resistant.  Also, these antibiotics are made to work with the physiology of mammals, not plants.  They could be toxic and end up killing your plants! Long story short, don't be pouring your antibiotics on your plants!   

Aspirin actually makes sense to use on a plant.  Aspirin (also known as Salicylic acid) is derived from plants and is actually a plant hormone.  As Wikipedia states:

" Salicylic acid (SA) is a phenolic phytohormone and is found in plants with roles in plant growth and development, photosynthesis, transpiration, ion uptake and transport. SA also induces specific changes in leaf anatomy and chloroplast structure. SA is involved in endogenous signaling, mediating in plant defense against pathogens.[4] It plays a role in the resistance to pathogens by inducing the production of pathogenesis-related proteins.[5] It is involved in the systemic acquired resistance (SAR) in which a pathogenic attack on one part of the plant induces resistance in other parts. The signal can also move to nearby plants by salicyclic acid being converted to the volatile ester, methyl salicylate.[6]"

Therefore it may help stimulate the plant "immune system" and help fight off plant pathogens.  Good luck with your plants!

 

[Cindy]

Yes, exactly, Chris! Salicylic acid seems to be the first line of defense in plant after plant that has been studied for immunology. But it stresses plants badly to have to make their own salicylic acid, so now they've discovered the chemical cascade that produces salicylic acid, and azelaic acid is the chemical that floods the plant first and cycles into the salicylic acid. Some new research has found that spraying plants with azelaic acid helps the plant build salicylic acid throughout all parts of the plant quickly without the stress that building salicylic acid usually causes.

I've been looking for a place to get azelaic acid and haven't found one yet. I could buy a metric ton of it from China, LOL, but that's not exactly practical. But I'm sure there's some lab chemical supply company that I'll find it from eventually.

[roadrunner]

Thanks Charlie, Cindy, Kerry, and Jordan. I'll be in the dark on this for a while as my pc has some serious issues going on and my pc tech is coming by to pick it up today. I may be without it for several days. I may go into serious withdrawal. Yikes

We are also in the middle of a serious cold wave for our part of the country with expected highs in the low 30s and lows in the teens for the next few days. Ok you guys in Conn and Colorado, please don't laugh. I know that's swimming wx for you. We even have a wind chill in single digits this morning. Kinda rare for here. Still lucky to escape what most of the rest of the country is experiencing right now and at least we don't have the snow and ice to deal with.

dave

[Cindy]

Good luck with both the weather and your pc, Dave!  Both hitting at the same time is bad!!!!!

[helixturnhelix]

Its cool huh Cindy! I really think its interesting that worm castings increase chitinase activity.  Since fungi are composed of chitin, when you increase chitinase, you increase the ability for this enzyme to break down chitin. This prevents those fungi from infecting your plants, since the chitinase breaks down the chitin in the fungi!  I wonder what the active ingredient is in worm castings ?   

[Cindy]

Wow, that is interesting, Chris! I'll try to research that. There are a lot of chitin-blocker pest control products, including pet flea pills. I wonder if the worms produce chitinase to help them break down dead insect matter as they munch through soil? I wonder what else they produce? If they eat dirt, they must make a lot of very strong enzymes.

The whole world of plant immunology and communication is still uncharted territory, and we have so much to learn! It's fascinating, but also frustrating that we know so little.

Another thing I've used to save sick plants is coffee! It sounds really weird, but I've had some plants that were on their last leg and ready to go into the garbage anyway. So I figure maybe a drastic pH change will prevent an unfriendly environment for the disease microbe. I water the plant with pure coffee for 2-3 weeks to really acidify the soil and the whole plant. I do that so commonly that I forgot to mention it, and I've had pretty good results with it.

Once I get the disease to stop spreading further through the plant, then a little root pruning and about 1/2 inch of fresh potting soil in the bottom of the pot, with hefty doses of Super Nova or Houseplant Formula, vitamin D, and Wake Up Spray can finish pulling the plant through the disease and make new healthy leaves start growing. The new root growth produces growth hormones all through the plant, which seems to do the final trick of fighting off the disease for good.

[helixturnhelix]

Ok that is awesome that you mention coffee, because Ive been watering my banana plant with my leftover coffee and it is loving it.  Acid and tannins must be a good source of fertilizer!

I am glad you remembered that Chitin makes up insect skeletons, so if a plant is producing chitinase.  When pest insects try to eat a plant that has lots of chitinase, it could be pretty unpalatable.

What is interesting about worms is there has been a group of bacteria that only live in the gut, which help break down the yummies the worm eats.  Its a relatively new group a bacteria and I had a nice long conversation about them with the scientist that discovered them!  Very cool stuff, I am looking forward to what your research brings up! 

[Darkhorse]

OH no, don't worry, that was merely speculation!  I'll leave it up to someone else to do the research.    I do want to try... I think Louis mentioned it... catching a few earthworms and putting them in the pots.  My concern would be the Kontos.  It would probably kill them.  I have worm castings but I'm not sure how long they last,  especially with the heat we get out here in the summertime. 

[Nievesgirl]

Great info everyone ! Cindy your experiements are awesome I will try asprin and coffee next time I think a plant wont make it.

I have a suggest for the bumps under leaves again. What if they are galls ?

And Cindy I found AZELAIC ACID but what percent are you looking for ? When I googled this it is used in facial masks/ products lol

There are a few labs I found who sale it at 95% they wont sale to residential places but since you and Charlie have a business they may

[Cindy]

That's great, Kerry!  If you get a chance, please email me the link for the azelaic acid source and I'll look into it.

It's interesting, but it's used in skin creams for things like acne and psoriasis. So it has a curative effect for infections in human skin as well as in plants.  I could get it in creams but thought it might not work too well to slather my plants with face cream! LOL

[Bart]

I'm so sorry for the lengthy absence.  Farmhouse, the answer is Yes. It look like this and in many cases could be much worse before the leaf finally starts to wilt, turn brown and fall, if I don't see it quick enough to take it. I am actually out of town tonight and heading inside to my hotel room. I'll do my darndest to try and post some PO's from my laptop unless someone can tell me how to post to the site from an iPhone. I have since found that by using something with a very small, sharp tip (needle) the bumps, blisters or lesions actually do come off the leaf. One guy said it appeared to him that some sort of bug was inside the liesons. I suppose that could be true but I cant see them, or at least I can't tell it's an insect of some kind wrapped up in a bubble of some sort. One thing for sure though, they can be pried away. You are also correct in that, they appear different depending on the cultivar.

I am so frustrated at this point, I am considering discarding all my cloned plants and try to just concentrate on the large plants that I got from HVH. Just too many plants for one person to deal with if they're not healthy and if I continue to work with them at the rate I have been and am, I could become burnt out completely and I've enjoyed raising these plant too much to allow that to happen.

Let me see about a picture. If I get them posted and you see anything that feels familiar to you, you are welcome to call me to discuss and i could share our discussion with our friends. Just a thought. Let me see what I can get done.

Thanks very much,
Bart

[Bart]

Darkhorse, I just looked at one of the pics again and it looks exactly like the ones you posted. Just thought I'd add that

Bart

[Darkhorse]

Bart, I'm anxious to see some of your pictures.  Have you looked at what you're peeling off under a magnifying glass?

[Charlie]

Bart, if the bumps come off the leaf that is a whole different scenario than what we've discussed in the past. That would suggest that they are a type of scale, of which there are many. With hibiscus we commonly find the white scale called snow scale on plants shipped from Florida where this pest has established itself. They are easy to see and identify because they are tiny and bright white. But, there are hundreds of types of scale, most of which are dark colored so that they blend against the bark and are not spotted by predators. Many scale share the trait of forming a protective shell over themselves once they settle in to feed on a plant. This shell is usually impervious to pesticide sprays so only systemics will get rid of them. You can also smother small scale by coating them with undiluted horticultural oil. Scale in small numbers can just be scraped off with a fingernail or knife. Safari is pretty good at killing them systemically.

Scale mostly are found on woodier parts of plants, so if these are scale it is puzzling to find them on leaves. Mealy bugs are the other type of insect that attacks hibiscus and builds a waxy coating over themselves for protection. They are commonly found on leaves but the waxy coating is white and looks like cotton. But, if the plants are sprayed a lot, as I think Bart does, that waxy coating could be affected by the sprays and might turn into something like what is seen on the leaves.

Bart, the important thing for you to do is to determine if anything is living inside or under the blister. If it is an insect then the solution is quite different than if it is a fungus or bacterial problem.

Charlie

[Bart]

The Blisters, black spots, bumps or/and as of today when I looked it them through a 60X microscope, Melanoma looking things, some do appear to have bugs inside. I've yet to see anything move or crawl after peeling one up. They are all on the undersides of the leaves. Some (the ones I refer to ad blisters)are clear and you can see inside them. Some of those don't show anything and others have a brown or black spot within the blister. We peeled one up and the guy that was with me swears the spot was an insect of some kind but it couldn't be made out. The Black spots have little, if any clear-like bubble encasing them that I can tell but it can be peeled off leaving the leaf in tact as long as I'm careful. Don't really know what the center is comprised of. I saw some radar that looks nasty. They are not uniform and are solid black thus I refer to them as Melanoma.

Charlie, I also am finding a white mildew/moldy looking stuff on some leaves. Also I can see small white specs that sounds consistent with the Melanoma  bug covering bit when I try to remove these, they break up in prices and I don't see any bugs.

One more thing, if I run my hands through the leaves, I see lots of tiny insect looking things coming out. They appear they can fly but they are so tiny (almost like dust particles) I can't make them out and I've never seen them on leaves. That is odd.

Summary- I have found I can remove the spots if careful. They are under the leaves (other than the white spots and they could show up top or bottom. Apparently the spots began as insects or bugs of some kind but I don't know how they resist the pyrithrins, Permethrin, acephate, spinosads and Avid over time. Spraying just doesn't seem to be the answer. I've even used Azamax lately. The plant roots are as healthy and white as snow.

I told you guys that I would attempt the pics again but to be honest, I sat on the edge of the hotel bed and fell asleep within minutes; just exhausted. I have stopped at a McDonalds to type this up. It's best I don't attempt typing while driving. A quick text caused me to total my ages car about a year ago in Cincy.   I'm not going to promise but, I'll be home in an hour  will give the pics another try. I know how important it is to see something. If that doesn't work, I would be glad to email each of you the latest pictures or I would be glad to mail some of the leaves. They actually hold up pretty we in a plastic sandwich bag.

Please forgive all typos as I try typing this only phone. I hope this helps !

Thank you guys very much. I've been gone from home since Tuesday so there is no telling what I will see when I arrive home.
Have a great weekend. I plan to spray again tomorrow. I sprayed last Sunday and I need to see if I can wipe out a generation of whatever it is. Just trying something at this Point