red veins?

[kris]

hello,

I was wondering if this was a common occurrence for new hybrids, to have red veined leaves.  I am asking because last fall I was finally able to get some seeds from crossing flashdance (pollen) to stolen kiss (pod).  Out of 25 seeds one grew, but only had cotyledon leaves for two months.  I was pretty sure that it was stunted and wasnt going to make it.  Now that the weather has warmed up it is sending up adult leaves which are a lush green with red veins.  I thought that was pretty unusual, and haven't seen it before.  Is this a common occurrence with hybrid hibiscus?  Which of the ancestors have this trait?  No idea what the flower is going to look like but the foliage sure is interesting. 

-kris   

[Charlie]

Hi Kris,

Aren't those colored leaves neat looking?  Many hybrids show these during their first year of growing, but they unfortunately go back to normal green leaves eventually. The shape and colors of young hybrid hibiscus leaves can be varied and quite astounding but these are, alas, temporary.

You could have a good cross on your hands there. It might bloom later this summer and then you will know. The first blooms can improve but by the time you've seen a dozen of them you have a pretty good idea what the new hybrid can do.

Good luck!

Charlie

[kris]

Hi Charlie,

That is disappointing that those cool colors will fade.  I will enjoy them for the time being!  I'll be sure to post some pictures when it starts blooming.  It also looks like the 4" hibiscus I bought last year will be ready to bloom soon (they are already covered in buds and its only march!) so there maybe some more crosses in the future. 

-Kris

[nina]

Hi, Kris,

I have heard that plants that have red veined leaves, and burgundy leaves' petals, can root much more easily than plants that do not have that.

[Charlie]

We often see 3 lobed leaves in seedlings, too. These are said to be a more primitive (ancient) leaf form but almost all seedling plants that show them as juveniles develop more typical leaf forms as they mature. After that all the cutting grown plants show the "normal" or mature leaf form instead of the juvenile form. It is really amazing the varied forms and colors of leaves that hibiscus can show as juveniles.

Every now and then a seedling will reach first bloom before changing leaf form and I hope that maybe it won't change. One variety that held onto the 3 lobed form is Creme de Cacao and many of its offspring also show interesting and odd leaves. There does seem to be a correlation between having older leaf forms and rooting readily. 

Charlie

[kris]

I am crossing my fingers for this one, but if you haven't had a variety keep its cool foliage, I doubt I will.  I more excited as to what color the bloom will be.  Is more common for the blooms of the F1 cross to have flowers similar to the parental hibiscus or can you have different colors because of the complexity of the genetics of the hybrid hibiscus.  I also have another question, and I hope you could answer it and it concerns purple hibiscus and white patterning in hibiscus.  I know that in the plant world most purple pigment is caused by anthocyanin production and the deepness of the purple is proportionate to the amount of anthocyanin produced by the plant.  However if too much mRNA is produced for anthocyanin production the plant can mistake it for viral RNA and effectively silence the gene, producing no pigment.  This effect is made examplified by the pinwheel petunia (white and purple) you see in stores in the summer.  So my question is if you were to continue to cross deep purple hibiscus would you observe a similar effect?  Is white pigment seen in hibiscus flowers the result of some sort of random gene pigment silencing or do they employ a different mechanism?  I figured if anyone could answer my question it would be on this forum.  Hope to hear from you  

[Charlie]

Hi Kris,

Yes, as you surmised F1 hibiscus crosses do resemble the species parents in flower and color. Almost no one has the species plants any longer which is why I have made an effort to collect them and make them available again. Almost all hibiscus crosses made these days are far from F1 types and involve a huge mix of genes.

Your comment about gene silencing in certain circumstances is interesting and I would bet this would explain some results we see. Hibiscus is not a big commercial plant so there has been very little scientific work done with it. Practically all hybridizing has been done randomly or at best as an organized trial and error approach.

It seems to me that progress has been slow but steady, with many crosses not yielding the hoped for results. Occasionally one does yield an improvement or a new color shade or pattern and then that plant is used for further work. Take Black Dragon for example. The cross that made it was random, available bloom taking available pollen without any idea what might happen. Then the dark black appeared and all were amazed. Since then further use of Black Dragon has resulted in darkening of a lot of colors and in some cases maintaining of the white speckles and rays that came from Dragon's Breath.

Or look at Nightfire and Midnight Blue. Both of these show some of the darkest purple  that we have in hibiscus. Many crosses have been made between these two and despite them both containing dark purple the results have not (yet) shown any increase in this quality. On the other hand, crosses of the dark blue variety Blue Moon took a long time but did eventually yield an even darker hue, which is seen in my Dark Angel.

Although it would seem, based on results of crosses, that almost any result is possible from just about any cross, the best bet and strategy is to cross flowers with similar desirable qualities as often as it takes to get what one hopes for. There is definitely an element of luck involved, and luck is improved with hard work and many attempts.

my two cents on this fascinating topic

Charlie

[kris]

Hi charlie,

That is really interesting.  I noticed in your description of fallen hero, crossing high voltage with orville davis resulted in a darkening of the coloration.  It also seems that black dragon also has this effect on coloration.  I noticed that dragons heat, is a darker and bigger version of heart of my heart and it shares the same parent as black dragon, dragons breath.  In your experience does it seem as though most offspring of dragons breath actually seem to darken the pigment of any parent it is crossed with?  Do you see similar effects with the offspring of orville davis?  Thanks for your thoughts and its great to have the opportunity to pick someones brain who has so much experience.

-Kris