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Author Topic: 2009 cvs  (Read 9401 times)
helixturnhelix
Seattle, WA

Posts: 1945



« on: August 13, 2009, 11:21:12 PM »

Splash:  Looks bright and the "splash" of color looks like this is one to keep an eye out for.

Maui Masterpiece: The colors look really similar to Call me Al, is this a better cv that is replacing CMA?

I saw these two on Davesgarden, I find its good place for checking out blooms in different growing conditions. 
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Charlie
Administrator
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Posts: 3646



« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2009, 08:03:13 AM »

Hi Chris,

Splash is one of the brightest colored flowers I have grown. As sometimes happens the first flowers were small, so we named it Pixie Fire. Then the weather warmed up and the seedling matured and the flowers grew to 8 inches! We decided it would not fit a Pixie series so changed the name to Splash because it is really a big splash of color.

Maui Masterpiece is bigger than Call Me Al and propagates much more readily. What you cannot see in  photos is that it is a really big flower, with heavy texture. I think it will turn into a good one that is around for a long time.

I may have some new photos of these, if so, they are below.

Charlie


* Splash-pair-f.jpg (157.09 KB, 600x596 - viewed 944 times.)
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helixturnhelix
Seattle, WA

Posts: 1945



« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 10:20:58 AM »

Splash and Maui Masterpiece sound really nice!  Hopefully I will see them in the store later in the year or next year. 

I have another question for you.  Do you propagate cvs in cycles?  I guess what I am trying to ask is if cvs that are pretty much always available (cinnamon girl, acapulco gold, fabulous, etc..) right now will be readily available in the future, or will focus most likely shift to the newer varieties?  I guess I am only asking because it seems like many of the cvs that were released 4 or 5 years ago are rarely available on the website now.  I am curious if it is due to a shift in focus or if propagation of those older cvs is more difficult when compared to the newer varieties.

Random question, but I have been wondering about it for a while Tongue     
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Nievesgirl

Posts: 975


« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2009, 10:44:33 AM »

I assumed that Charlie just found a better cv and this is why the cv's offered 4-5 years ago are sold rarely.

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~Kerry~
Charlie
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Posts: 3646



« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2009, 07:58:41 AM »

This is an interesting question. For the most part, Kerry is right - we replace older cvs with better ones that come along. However, some cvs are always in demand despite their (sometimes serious) drawbacks. Like Blue Moon, for example. I do try to cycle back and grow some of those that are unique and distinctive so that they do not become extinct. Some I used to grow but no longer have can be found in South America and Japan among other places and I could probably get them back.

I sometimes see older cvs being offered from Florida sources that were inferior at the time they first appeared and are even worse now in comparison to the improved varieties available today. That is probably because for show people "new and different" has always been more important than "new and better". I mean that in the sense that the flower was all important, and the other characteristics were inconsequential. So instead of seeing overall improvements over time what we saw was different flowers over time but the growth habit and performance of the new varieties did not change much.

You don't realize how important the overall plant is until you start placing hibiscus in garden centers. Go to a good one and look around. The plants of all types are nice looking. Very few floppy, sprawling, flower hanging down plants to be seen (unless the species is supposed to do that for whatever reason). When I first started placing the hibiscus I had collected into the best garden centers in southern California it was literally an embarrassment to me. The flowers were great when you could see them but the bushes were a turn off to potential customers. When I spoke to that generation of hybridizers about improving the situation I found lukewarm interest at best. That is when I decided to start hybridizing.

I point this out because when we say "better" we mean something more than just a "different" flower. We are looking for ease and reliability in propagation, vigor and the tendency to branch well, an upright growth habit, good presentation of the flowers, bright or interesting colors, sometimes large size, disease and insect resistance, heat and cold tolerance, and high flower count.

When you look at the American Hibiscus Society's Hibiscus of the Year list for the last 25 years the problem becomes apparent. Which of those varieties is still sought after, still grown by commercial growers in large numbers? Which have passed the tests of time? How many are extinct or very hard to find now? Well, most are long gone, some extinct, and none that I know of are easy to find and still being grown in large numbers. A few have been used extensively in hybridizing - such as Dragons Breath, Fifth Dimension, and more recently Black Dragon. Those 3 are all problematic as plants, and so although they can be found for sale they are not produced in larger numbers.

There are only a few hibiscus varieties from the last 25 years that are still widely grown, and interestingly enough most of those did not win the top prize when they were eligible. High Voltage is the prime example. It does almost everything right, is fit for the garden center, and still wows just about everyone with its big, bright flowers. Thrips and spider mites like it more than some other varieties but otherwise it is a rare example of an overall excellent variety hybridized over a decade ago. Rosalind is another example, but the need to graft it has caused it to be grown less than it would otherwise be.

There is one other aspect that determines which hibiscus are grown and which dropped. This is the little known but serious problem of contamination of stock with virus, fungus, and bacteria. If new fresh stock plants are not propagated and grown to replace aging ones what happens is that the ability of the older plants to provide wood that is healthy, propagates readily, and grows well decreases. When this happens rare varieties are often dropped due to a lack of suitable wood to propagate with. There are techniques such as using meristems in tissue culture that can free a variety from contamination and thus renew the variety, but these are not used with hibiscus due to expense and lack of expertise within the hibiscus growing community. We may see such practices as micropropagation and virus indexing in the future for hibiscus.

Anyway, the simple answer is yes, we replace older with newer (and better rather than just different, hopefully) but we also contend with decline of stock plants that prevents some varieties from lasting more than a few years.

Photo of Hibiscus 'High Voltage' is below. This one is in our garden, but grew in a big pot for years before being planted 3 years ago. It blooms and grows beautifully, very full now after providing 100s of cuttings over the years. This photo was taken yesterday.

Charlie



* HighVoltage-f.jpg (240.92 KB, 800x646 - viewed 1926 times.)
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Nievesgirl

Posts: 975


« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2009, 08:30:37 AM »

Very detail response Charlie sorry to compare plants to animals again but this is why I knew what you where doing with your hibiscus program. Its just like breeding any animal really but I will use dogs as an example.

Show Dog breeders do the same thing. We only keep the best , if you started out with a dog that is the best you can afford then you have to breed up from your foundation to get better quality dogs. Usually when a litter is born the breeder takes the best out of the litter. This is only done if the breeder sees a puppy that surpasses the quality of the dam or sire. In a litter there is likely to be only 1-2 show quality dogs the rest will be pet quality or some say breeding quality. The breeding quality dogs are never shown just bred to a better dog. If the pick of the litter is nicer than the dam or sire the breeder will replace the dam or sire in their breeding program.Our red standard poodle we have is the best we could afford. He has some minor faults for the show ring but we plan to breed him to a female that has the qualities we are looking to fix in our boy. We are showing him and hope to get a champion title on him ( this is how minor some of his faults are) But him being red is the main reason it will be harder to finish him in the show ring ( politics same stuff in the hibiscus show world) We did this same process of elimination of quality with our cats.

With working dog breeders ( the real original breeders that created breeds in the first place) rarely have problems like this in their breeding programs. they bred the dog to work so it the dog was lame sick they would be cull from the breeding program. Nothing is based on looks just working ability. This is why a lot of working dogs today are healthier and functional.  

What Charlie said about poor quality plants being bred is what happened to many dog breeds in the show world. So many people care about only breeding dogs that win that we have created health issues in some of the breeds. Back in the day one poodle kennels bloodline was so sought after that in breeding and too close line breeding occurred , people also kept breeding these dog despite health issues ( this is why poodles have so many health issues that you have to screen for) So now in the future we are paying for the old time breeders mistakes.  ( both the dog show world and hibiscus world is all about looks to most)

All of this seems exactly what is happening in the hibiscus world.  Hybridizers like Charlie are now trying to fix the quality in the hibiscus and breed better vigorous plants. Jill ( hawaiian lady hibiscus) Is on a similar path ! I hope to hybridize better quality plants also .
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~Kerry~
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