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Nievesgirl
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« on: July 20, 2009, 01:47:32 PM » |
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Are these Cv's still offered ?
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~Kerry~
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2009, 05:22:09 PM » |
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Hi Kerry, I think gypsy music has been replaced by Living Legend. Dont know about Gypsy King
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Charlie
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2009, 07:05:26 AM » |
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Gypsy Music has a pretty red flower and a decent bush but the variety had one bad flaw which is that the flowers hung down a lot of the time. Living Legend is bigger, has better form, and always presents the flowers so that you can see them. Gypsy Music is also a grafted variety which makes them more trouble to grow.
Gypsy King is another big red flower that sometimes made a very cool silver layer that seemed to overlay the red. However, it also blackened quickly at times which is a serious flaw that many intense red hibiscus flowers show to varying degrees. Gypsy King blooms well but the blackening problem is unacceptable in my opinion.
Another good, big red flower is Vermillion Queen from Dupont. The flower is large but the color is not as intense as some reds, still pretty good though. What I like most about V Queen is that it has a beautiful bush. I have a few V Queen plants in the 4 inch pots now.
Charlie
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Nievesgirl
Posts: 975
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2009, 09:37:21 AM » |
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Gypsy Music has a pretty red flower and a decent bush but the variety had one bad flaw which is that the flowers hung down a lot of the time. Living Legend is bigger, has better form, and always presents the flowers so that you can see them. Gypsy Music is also a grafted variety which makes them more trouble to grow.
Gypsy King is another big red flower that sometimes made a very cool silver layer that seemed to overlay the red. However, it also blackened quickly at times which is a serious flaw that many intense red hibiscus flowers show to varying degrees. Gypsy King blooms well but the blackening problem is unacceptable in my opinion.
Another good, big red flower is Vermillion Queen from Dupont. The flower is large but the color is not as intense as some reds, still pretty good though. What I like most about V Queen is that it has a beautiful bush. I have a few V Queen plants in the 4 inch pots now.
Charlie
Thanks for the info , I was looking into these two cv's because of whats in the pedigree. I will just Wait for Gypsy bride to become available again  |
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~Kerry~
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 12:42:32 PM » |
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I think I saw a gypsy bride in the 4' pot size under red flowers, unless you are looking for blooming size plants  |
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2009, 12:47:35 PM » |
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Charlie,
You said that gypsy king blackens quickly in the sun, but it still has that cool silver overlay. Does it bloom well in shaded areas/ in the house? If it does you could still sell it as a houseplant or a variety that needs shade like sleeping beauty. That silver overlay sounds really unique, so if blackening is the main flaw, changing growing conditions could make it desirable to still have.
-Chris
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2009, 01:37:50 PM » |
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Kerry, looks like gypsy bride is gone  |
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Nievesgirl
Posts: 975
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2009, 01:42:02 PM » |
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Yeah It sold out maybe a month ago lol I am too late in my research.
I agree the silver effect on gypsy king caught my eye !
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~Kerry~
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2009, 04:26:21 PM » |
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There looks like there are some more gypsy brides under pink flowering plants again |
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Nievesgirl
Posts: 975
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2009, 05:21:41 PM » |
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I thought gypsy bride was more of a red bloom now that I am reading it's description more I might have to pass.
I want to avoid pink an other hybridizer told me pink is dominant
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~Kerry~
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2009, 06:43:47 PM » |
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Hi Kerry, I think it is pretty dangerous to say outright that pink is dominant, especially when one realizes that pigment is not controlled by one gene. The problem with most hybridizers (or the public in general) is they think in a very linear fashion. For example most think that if AA was crossed with aa the offspring would be Aa and look like AA. What is important to remember is there are tons of interactions between not only the genes that encode for the protein that produces pigment, but also the different enzymes that are required for expression of this pigment. Say you cross one flower that is said to be a dominant flower color phenotype with another that is supposed to be recessive. However, this recessive plant also has a gene for an enzyme that inhibits the production of one pigment in the dominant flower colored plant. The offspring then has both the inhibitor and dominant color gene. Because this new enzyme is in the presence of the dominant flower gene, it may muddle the expression of this gene and produce offspring the have incomplete expression or complete silencing making a new color. Look at the offspring of gator pride, most of the offspring are appearing in pastels telling us that something is going on maybe silencing of certain pigment proteins. With that being said not all pinks are created equal. The mechanism used to produce pink pigment in one plant could be totally different in another. Crossing them could produce a whole myriad of color types because of new gene interactions between genes that haven't been together before. I think what is more important that just saying one color is dominant over another is to look at trends in the color of the offspring that cv produces. For example: crosses with rainbow christie produces a really dark eye, Or most offspring of fifth dimension produce offspring that fade badly. Finally look at nightfire vs midnight blue, according to charlie many of nightfire's offspring have flowers that dont even last one day. These are all trends to look for. If you are not interested in pink flowers, then look for cvs that dont usually produce pink offspring. It is entirely possible that gypsy bride will produce red and white offspring even though she is in the pink category. If she has good qualities, bush, blooms, fecundity, etc... I would go ahead and use her. I think that there is so much variation within hybrid hibiscus, it is ignorant to tell someone that pink is dominant all of the time because they obviously have never taken a course in genetics or molecular biology and do not understand gene interaction. It is great to ask those more seasoned in this field for advice, but I think it is important to take that information and do your own research before taking what is said to you as 100% fact. And what is even better is to do your own experimentation and draw your own conclusions. I think charlie has pushed this envelope by doing his own experiments with his own hybrids and has found alot of the original hibiscus hybridizing dogma was untrue. It was said that self pollination wasnt possible in hybrid hibiscus and looking at charlies' cvs strawberry cream and white lightning we know this is incorrect. Also, most said that doing crosses between garden cvs and exotics will not yield anything worth keeping, but young at heart, blue president, first love are all cvs from one such cross which have great qualities. Sorry for the rant, but its something that gets me fired up. I guess the gist of what I am trying to say is use cvs that you think have qualities you want in your offspring and dont not use one because someone told you pink is dominant |
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Nievesgirl
Posts: 975
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2009, 08:41:38 PM » |
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Hi Kerry, I think it is pretty dangerous to say outright that pink is dominant, especially when one realizes that pigment is not controlled by one gene. The problem with most hybridizers (or the public in general) is they think in a very linear fashion. For example most think that if AA was crossed with aa the offspring would be Aa and look like AA. What is important to remember is there are tons of interactions between not only the genes that encode for the protein that produces pigment, but also the different enzymes that are required for expression of this pigment. Say you cross one flower that is said to be a dominant flower color phenotype with another that is supposed to be recessive. However, this recessive plant also has a gene for an enzyme that inhibits the production of one pigment in the dominant flower colored plant. The offspring then has both the inhibitor and dominant color gene. Because this new enzyme is in the presence of the dominant flower gene, it may muddle the expression of this gene and produce offspring the have incomplete expression or complete silencing making a new color. Look at the offspring of gator pride, most of the offspring are appearing in pastels telling us that something is going on maybe silencing of certain pigment proteins. With that being said not all pinks are created equal. The mechanism used to produce pink pigment in one plant could be totally different in another. Crossing them could produce a whole myriad of color types because of new gene interactions between genes that haven't been together before. I think what is more important that just saying one color is dominant over another is to look at trends in the color of the offspring that cv produces. For example: crosses with rainbow christie produces a really dark eye, Or most offspring of fifth dimension produce offspring that fade badly. Finally look at nightfire vs midnight blue, according to charlie many of nightfire's offspring have flowers that dont even last one day. These are all trends to look for. If you are not interested in pink flowers, then look for cvs that dont usually produce pink offspring. It is entirely possible that gypsy bride will produce red and white offspring even though she is in the pink category. If she has good qualities, bush, blooms, fecundity, etc... I would go ahead and use her. I think that there is so much variation within hybrid hibiscus, it is ignorant to tell someone that pink is dominant all of the time because they obviously have never taken a course in genetics or molecular biology and do not understand gene interaction.
I t is great to ask those more seasoned in this field for advice, but I think it is important to take that information and do your own research before taking what is said to you as 100% fact. And what is even better is to do your own experimentation and draw your own conclusions. I think charlie has pushed this envelope by doing his own experiments with his own hybrids and has found alot of the original hibiscus hybridizing dogma was untrue. It was said that self pollination wasnt possible in hybrid hibiscus and looking at charlies' cvs strawberry cream and white lightning we know this is incorrect. Also, most said that doing crosses between garden cvs and exotics will not yield anything worth keeping, but young at heart, blue president, first love are all cvs from one such cross which have great qualities. Sorry for the rant, but its something that gets me fired up. I guess the gist of what I am trying to say is use cvs that you think have qualities you want in your offspring and dont not use one because someone told you pink is dominant Well I need to take some sort of advice from someone , I do not have a yard or green house to keep lots of CV's I rather not get a pink if its true or not I also rather not experiment especially if it turns out true that pink over takes the seedlings ( I would have wasted 1-2 years because of it) . I also hate the color pink lol The person I talk to knows my program I am going to work on and he advised that pink would take over the colors I am working with. It is probably true that pink does not dominant all colors but the colors I am working with this person has experience first hand with it. You can not lump all Hybridizers as the same .... how do you know where this person learned his info from ? How do you know if he did not take any kind of genetic class ? I have never taken a genetic class yet I know cat and dog genetics pretty well. Sorry I found that part kind of offensive. Just because some one took a class does not mean they are smarter. I have so many people judge me based on my appearance they think I should not know anything about dogs or anything animals at all.Just last night at the dog park I had two people dumb talk me about dogs , yet I probably knew 1000 times more things about dogs than they ever will. All I do is nod and smile let them feel like they are teaching me about dogs lol I again I am not saying what you said is wrong but i guess I should have been more specific on what he mean by pink being dominant. You can not dismiss all old information either. I agree that a lot of things that some of the older hybridizer's are not 100% fact. |
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~Kerry~
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 09:06:29 PM » |
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Hi Kerry, I do see how that could come off condescending and that wasn't my intention. I am well aware that taking a class or getting a degree doesn't make you a smarter person. The science of genetics started with Mendel looking at heredity of flowers and those patterns in his pea plants. I guess I just had a problem with the statement that pink is dominant stems from the fact I have seen many examples where that is not true. So to me, it is like ignoring the first step in the development of a hypothesis, oberservation! In the end just as long as you know what you want, that is what is most important. I guess I just didn't want you to not do something or use a cv you like or see qualities you want because someone said that a specific result would occur. I really like alot of your ideas, so in the end I just want you to be successful. I don't know too much about dog and cat genetics, and am in the process of looking into some breeds and coat colors, so if I have any questions I know where to go  -Chris |
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Nievesgirl
Posts: 975
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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 09:26:11 PM » |
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Hi Kerry, I do see how that could come off condescending and that wasn't my intention. I am well aware that taking a class or getting a degree doesn't make you a smarter person. The science of genetics started with Mendel looking at heredity of flowers and those patterns in his pea plants. I guess I just had a problem with the statement that pink is dominant stems from the fact I have seen many examples where that is not true. So to me, it is like ignoring the first step in the development of a hypothesis, oberservation! In the end just as long as you know what you want, that is what is most important. I guess I just didn't want you to not do something or use a cv you like or see qualities you want because someone said that a specific result would occur. I really like alot of your ideas, so in the end I just want you to be successful. I don't know too much about dog and cat genetics, and am in the process of looking into some breeds and coat colors, so if I have any questions I know where to go -Chris No problem Chris I kind of still ticked off from the dog park thing lol I really thought your where trying to be condescending in your post sorry for taking it the wrong way. I don't like red either so the only good thing I see about gypsy bride is its pedigree and texture . I might still get it but I dunno. I see better things in some like it hot. I will probably get some like it hot next week or buy it tomorrow. I am caught up in this separate red program now because of what my new hybridizer friend has been telling me lol. I need 2 good reds I am getting some wood of pro legato and black baron too so this should be enough along with some like it hot. I was thinking of getting gypsy king or music because of topaz glory in its pedigree. ( may get some darker browns) I started another topic in the hybridizing section about browns. |
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~Kerry~
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Nievesgirl
Posts: 975
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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009, 09:30:44 PM » |
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O yeah ask away about dogs and cats lol I do not know all of breeds color genetics, I am familiar with american pit bull terriers, german shepherds, doberman pinschers, right now I am in standard poodles ( very interesting since they carry a fading gene) and basic colors. As for Cats most colors and bobtail gene  |
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~Kerry~
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2009, 09:41:41 PM » |
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Lol, I was ticked off at someone who was blatantly saying things about stuff he didn't have facts to support today at the farmers market, so I guess I got a bit heated when I read the pink dominance statement. Its pretty funny how outside events can affect how someone interprets the written word. Now back on topic The texure is what really appeals to me about gypsy bride too, I guess great minds think alike. I was also thinking about getting a some like it hot the other day, but since it is usually available, I think I will wait a bit on that one. I also have a few babies growing so who knows how much room I will have! lol. Pro legato looks alot like diamond head to me. The only thing I heard about black baron is it grows very slowly, so hopefully the plant you get will be ready to bloom already if it is a slow grower. I think wild dream could have some really interesting offspring so hopefully yours will be blooming in the fall when its better to hybridize. |
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Nievesgirl
Posts: 975
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2009, 09:52:20 PM » |
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Lol, I was ticked off at someone who was blatantly saying things about stuff he didn't have facts to support today at the farmers market, so I guess I got a bit heated when I read the pink dominance statement. Its pretty funny how outside events can affect how someone interprets the written word. Now back on topic The texure is what really appeals to me about gypsy bride too, I guess great minds think alike. I was also thinking about getting a some like it hot the other day, but since it is usually available, I think I will wait a bit on that one. I also have a few babies growing so who knows how much room I will have! lol. Pro legato looks alot like diamond head to me. The only thing I heard about black baron is it grows very slowly, so hopefully the plant you get will be ready to bloom already if it is a slow grower. I think wild dream could have some really interesting offspring so hopefully yours will be blooming in the fall when its better to hybridize. HAHA that is too funny! Same here this is why I put off buying some like its hot its available often than some of the others lol. I want to buy together instead of one shipping so I am waiting for some of the cv's I really want. well some I am not getting grafted plants , these will be wood so this is why my grafted thread started. I found a local rose society and I emailed the president to see if she or anyone could graft the plant for me. ( not my idea but a great one though) The president live on the way to my school so we will see what happens I need a home depot plant now. |
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~Kerry~
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 10:07:10 PM » |
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Good luck! If all else fails, Im sure you could do it as long as ur rootstock is good.
/crossfingers
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