Moonstruck

[Charlie]

We did use this on Rainbow Christi and got Moonstruck this way. The problem with doing it is that the mother plant is set back and may never recover. I haven't done it since that year when High Voltage and Rainbow Christi were both used. The one use of this technique that might be worth exploring is with a variety that otherwise does not produce offspring.

Charlie

[blupit007]

So there was no pollen transfer?  Cause, being too slick, I stuck pollen from a Saffron flower onto itself.  Got nothing...

[Darkhorse]

On that note, why not just put pollen from the same plant back onto the pads?  Does the cross never take this way?

[Charlie]

Yes, that means no pollen was transferred using the hormone trick. Self crosses where pollen of the same variety is used to pollinate that variety does work with hibiscus sometimes. All the original species plants of hibiscus reproduced this way which is one reason why they are species. The hybrids do not usually form seeds when self pollinated for reasons that are not clear to me. Chris, do you know?

Kerry did a successful self cross last year and sent me the seeds to grow. I forget what it was now - Gator Pride x Gator Pride perhaps. You can find it in her forum posts from last summer. In any case the seeds were planted and the successful ones are growing and should bloom sometime this summer.

Charlie

[helixturnhelix]

Hi Charlie

These hybrids are usually polyploids meaning they have an odd number of chromosomes.  An example would be crossing a species hibiscus that had 12 chromosomes with another that has 14.  The offspring then has 13.  This plant is healthy but when it comes to making gametes (eggs and pollen) the chromosomes don't form the right haploids (half the chromosome, sex gametes) to form viable offspring when self crossed.  They can still be crossed to other polyploids though  

Here is a wikipedia page about it and funny enough the example it gives is H. rosa-siensis  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyploidy

So no blooms from those seedlings yet, huh.  Man the anticipation is driving me crazy!

[Charlie]

Excellent explanation, Professor! Thanks. Expanding the discussion, if we have a hybrid that is a very good seed setter, and seems to make seeds with almost any other hybrid we use for pollen, what would that suggest? Does it have anything to do with chromosome numbers or is it more about the performance/capabilities of the reproductive organs? I suppose both factors would be involved. Little has been done to learn the chromosome numbers of the currently available hybrids so one cannot really use this approach to figuring out what can be crossed with what but it is still good to know the theoretical possibilities.

Charlie

[blupit007]

Got it Charlie,  Good man you are.  Protecting your hibiscus friends.  I knew I liked you!

[helixturnhelix]

Hi Charlie I am not really sure to be honest.  I suspect that it would have something to do with both flower morphology and compatibility of the chromosome number.  Sometimes in polyploid plants that dont have a viable number of chromosomes can sometimes forgo one round of mitosis and therefore not separate their chromosomes, (making a polyploid of 13 double to 26)  This plant now has the chromosomes to line up during meiosis.  The now plant of 26 chromosomes, each has a pair to make a haploid of 13.  Whereas before when the total chromosome number was 13, it did not segregate properly during meiosis.  This plant is now viable instead of fertile. Just like a sport of a flower can come to be, a non seed setting variety can sometimes set seed over time.  That would explain that instance of Renaissance Blue setting seed, that this plant had some sort of mitotic defect that allowed it to become viable.

Its a bit hard to explain in a posting, but hopefully this doesn't all sound like gooble gunk      

[Charlie]

No, I follow you Chris. Thanks. This is no doubt one of the reasons why hybridizers of other species like Day Lilies often talk about diploids, triploids, and tetraploids. By multiplying the chromosomes more possibilities for successful crosses are created. Right? I followed the Wiki links posted earlier and found the fascinating example of grass - but that's another topic for another day.

The only person I know who tried to deliberately cause mutations in hibiscus that could have resulted in diploids, etc was Dale Dubin, an MD with some lab experience. He used toxic colchicine to treat seeds in the hope that this would provide some interesting results. He says he didn't get anything worth pursuing and all his good hybrids came about the old fashioned way - hand pollination of varieties he liked.

Charlie

[blupit007]

A couple opening moonstruck photos.  I will get some later on as it fades.  Take note that it is super hot mid 90's with a heat index of 100º.  And the humidity is horrendous. Also, it is an 8" bloom here.