Hidden Valley Hibiscus Forum

I see that the American Hibiscus Society just announced their seedling of the year and Voodoo Magic came in 3rd place. I would have given it first against the competition it had. The winner was Sweet Pink, a big pink double that often hangs straight down on the bush but makes a good show flower since all show flowers are picked and entered stuck on wires that hold them upright. The first time I sent a Sweet Pink to a customer we got a disappointed response about the difficulty in seeing this flower when it bloomed on the bush. Such is the way with show flowers and awards...

By the way, the people in control of that contest eliminate hybridizers in California and elsewhere by restricting entries to the hibiscus of the year contest to those that win a Best Seedling award at Florida, Louisiana, and Texas hibiscus shows. One of their more perceptive members floated the idea that this does not include some of the best cultivars released each year and suggested that there be alternative ways to include such cvs that are not shown as seedlings in those shows, but the committee in charge voted against making any changes. Ahh well, we may just have to start a Western US Hibiscus Society to represent the rest of us.

My two cents.........

Charlie

That is funny Charlie,

Politics in everything I suppose...  It would be nice if they included everything when they evaluate SOTY, including bush and how often it blooms, since they dont do that they should call it the bloom of the year competition.  For example, there is a June's Dragon that has a huge flower growing at my parents house, but has only bloomed once or twice.  It sends out flowers sporadically, not good for planting in the yard, or growing at all in my opinion.  It sounds like many of those CVs have too many problems!   

That's the strange thing, Chris - they say that they do evaluate everything!

As those of us who have grown Voodoo Magic know, and there are many that have, that cv does just about everything right. It is upright, very well branched, and blooms prolifically from all those branches. The unique colors of the flower are just variable enough to be interesting and are mostly colorfast in the sun. The bush is compact and does not grow very large and is not the greatest landscape plant, doing better as a potted specimen for me, but that's a minor flaw compared to flowers that hang straight down. I've tried to make sense of the results of the Hibiscus of the Year award for a decade now and rarely can see how the result is arrived at. What is telling to me is that most of the winners over the last 50 years are long extinct while other varieties that were not even considered in the yearly contest live on and are still in demand. The process in place does not manage to identify the best cultivars is the only conclusion I can come up with.

Charlie

You would think that for the sake of the hobby they would want to include everyone in the US, not just people in their area.  I ordered one plant from a FL nursery last year just because it was a cultivar that I had sought after and sought after.  Anyway, I got an email back from them that due to competition they don't ship to CA.  Long story short they shipped me the plant anyway and it looked awful.  Just one stick with two or three leaves on it.  To their credit it could have been the standard bush for that cultivar, as I didn't know anything about it other than the one bloom photo I saw was amazing... however it started to improve in my care but it eventually was one of my mite drowning casualties.


I look at the IHS website from time to time, mostly just browsing for pretty pictures.  I was reading about the SOTY and HOTY.  They do give the impression that they evaluate everything.  What would be the best way to do it in my opinion would be to have the judges each grow several of each competing cultivar personally for some length of time, and evaluate them that way.  Don't know if they do that already but I can't see if so how they'd miss or even disregard the fact that the plant doesn't bloom, or the bush sucks, or the flowers hang down, or.............. 

Thanks Jordan for the VM pics!  Mine are just starting to get ready to bloom, and the plants look similar to yours. I like them1

John

Wow Jordan, someone wouldn't send you a cv because you are in Cali!?  There is also some sort of clique in those shows, because the same individuals are having their seedlings be, HOTY.  Suspicious... :P  

Hmm, there is a lot going on behind the scenes at hibiscus shows and in deciding awards like Hibiscus of the Year that people are not aware of, and I'm not sure that we need to focus much attention on it. The plants and flowers and the time we spend with them and what we learn and experience as we grow them is the thing that is important. But, since awards and shows are a small part of the world of hibiscus and people are going to be exposed to them, any effort to help put it in perspective is probably good. It is rare for me to quote Barry Schlueter, but he recently wrote and placed in the public domain a short essay about hibiscus of the year awards that I will copy and paste into this forum. Take it with a grain of salt, but he is not all wrong by any means. I guess I should add that his entry in this year's contest came in 4th, a disappointment to him I'm sure.

Barry writes:
Which new hibiscus variety is actually the Hibiscus of the Year?  This is an American HS award so we eliminate off the top all the international hybridizers such as the prolific Dick Johnson with his Tahiti cultivars.  And we eliminate prolific breeders like Charles Black in CA who has no access to shows that currently qualify new varieties for the competition.  AND we eliminate all the new varieties that we commercials produce and in my case, patent, making them unable to compete for the AHS award.  Most likely, the Hibiscus of the Year in the USA for any given year is a new introduction by Dupont or Charles Black or Hines Nursery, representing my productions.  Sales totals seem to me like a good method for awarding the prize, if anyone were really interested.

But laying all that aside, within this limited AHS system, what determines which new variety wins?  For many years it was simply an arm twisting contest with the hibiscus movers and shakers in Florida making the choices.  Some of us then began to urge the adoption of a numerical system like other horticultural societies use.  Such an instrument is finally in place, and it does make the process somewhat more objective.  Varieties are scored in numerous categories and numbers are tallied to determine outcomes.  Perfectly fair, yes?

Well . . consider the US House of Representatives, where choices are made daily concerning the laws that govern this country.  ON what basis do our Reps make their decisions?  How much of a factor is the opinion of the electorate, and how much of a factor are the corporations who, through lobbyists, donate most of the money that elects the Reps and finances many of their perks and toys?  INcreasingly the answer is obvious; you and I can only with great difficulty affect choices at that level.  The point is that everything depends upon WHO is choosing a Best of Show or an All American Rose Selection or Best Standard Poodle, or whether to permit or deny abortion under some circumstances, or who is scoring Hibiscus of the Year forms.

Each of us Homo sapiens approaches each decision in Life with our own perspective and our own biases and allegiances.  No volunteer committee can possibly be objective, and no numerical instrument can perfectly measure how beautiful or potentially impotrant a new variety may be.  And the makeup of the selection committee is quite a problem in a society as small as ours.  Many committee members have commercial hibiscus businesses, with obvious biases, since most potential volunteers lack the space or the funds or the expertise or the time to grow these dozens of varieties under trial.  And certainly there are committee member biases and allegiances that affect the awarding of points as members score performance of the candidates.

The variance from 9 to 35 Jim mentioned illustrates that cool number system notwithstanding now, everything depends upon WHO is subjectively assessing the performance and writing numbers down.  We humans like to pretend that Judges of all sorts lack biases and allegiances and prejudices, but it just isn't true, so the vagaries of politics have a lot to do with the ultimate choices for Best Poodle, All American Rose Selection, Best in Show ANYTHING, and AHS Hibiscus of the Year.  In the current sytem administered by the current Seedling Evaluation Committee, Sweet Pink won, and no doubt deserved to.

ONe hopes that the AHS system is improving, and it will continue to improve as the committee increasingly makes public their decisions and scoring.  At least the AHS is finally moving away from the absurdity of allowing judges in the show system to vote for their own entries!  Public disclosure and peer pressure are good tools for combatting extreme bias.  

IN the meantime, congratulations to Sweet Pink and the Dupont team, for succeeding in this system.  

Barry Schlueter

That's Barry's opinion. Mine is that hibiscus are really complicated plants and each of us will have our own unique experience with each variety we grow. We all have microclimates and our own techniques for growing and between the two we get the results we see. An award at best should be considered a suggestion that we might enjoy growing that variety but does not guarantee that it will be better than or even as good as many other varieties we have experience with. It might turn out great or it might be a disappointment, caveat emptor (buyer beware) always applies even to the most awarded of hibiscus.

Charlie

I know Chris... they sent it to me anyway, but I think they were trying to feel out who I was affiliated with. 









Isn't this just supposed to be fun?  It is for me, that's all I care about.   :D

That's a strange experience, Jordan. John Bagnasco, book reviewer for Garden Compass magazine, once recommended to me that I read the books out there about orchids and the orchid trade. I gathered that "orchid wars" have been going on for a long time, with lots of intrigue among collectors and dealers. I haven't done it yet, but one of these days plan to get around to reading about the orchid scene.

Charlie

 Flower of the year would make no difference to me and i suspect many others who are members of HVH,if we didn't like it we wouldn't buy it.
I don't know anything about how its judged but i would suspect its mainly on the color of the bloom on that day.How do we know if it blooms regularly or the bush is upright or handle heat etc,we don't, but when we buy a HVH cv we do.

Charlie,

When you get the chance read about the orchid wars, it really is fascinating.  I really like orchids and still grow a few, but what I like about hibiscus is you get the chance to see flowers on a regular basis, vs with most orchid varieties out there, it is a once a year deal.  Though there are a few breeders out there trying to get repeat bloomers.  Still the history is really fascinating.  I used to have a book on Luther Burbank, one of the pioneer botanists and breeders of his day.  He was inspired by Charles Darwins's book "The Variation of Plants and Animals under Domestication" and based on Darwins work, because to do alot a cross breeding of different plant species, inter-specific breeding.  In fact we have Burbank to thank for the: Russet potato, plumqat, etc... I bet hibiscus culivars have some interesting history behind them as well :)

Thanks for the input, Chris. Does any one particular book on orchids come to mind that you would recommend?

Charlie

I remember reading "The Orchid Theif" and found it entertaining, but I do not know how much of the information is true.  Another book that is interesting and really well researched is "Botany of Desire"  Where author Michael Pollan gives an interesting history and perspective to several common and important groups of plants, more specifically Tulips, Potatoes, Apples, etc... There is also a short video series on pbs.org about the book. 

Charlie, have you thought about writing a book about hibiscus?  I think that with more people becoming interested in these fascinating plants, there will be a demand for a book.  At bookstores I see many books on just orchids or roses or even carnivorous plants.  Still none for hibiscus :)  In fact a book is a great gateway into a hobby, and would help expose others to the variety this plant group has to offer.  Many people still think that the simple red hibiscus "brilliant"is all there is.   

One problem with hibiscus books is that the pace at which hybridizing is taking place will make the photos and variety info of any book become obsolete in just a few years. A DVD might be better, with updates every 3 years or so. I've talked about a hibiscus book and thought about it for years and still want to do something one day. Meanwhile, how about a mystery novel populated with hibiscus enthusiasts?  That's what I'm working on now, just for fun.  :)

Charlie

Mystery novel with hibiscus enthusiasts huh?  Perhaps the protagonist can solve the age old mystery of UNK x UNK :P

Food for thought, Chris!!!!


Charlie

The discussion of hibiscus of the year award brings to mind the contests held for daylilies each year.  I am a rampant daylily grower but find that I do not always agree with the directions taken by hybridizers.   I like certain shapes, colors and not others, and I'm reasonably certain that those making selections for the hibiscus folks are the same.  I, for example, do not like the gray or most of the brown hibiscus developed.  Give me the bright colors and the dark centers as well as the pretty pinks.  If I were a judge, I would probably never chose a gray flowered CV to win.  The winners are not really the best new flower developed just the favorite of the the judges chosen to make the selection.  A system of giving certain grades or classifications to hibicus as they do with daylilies would be fairer and more consistent from year to year than having just one "winner".

Jan


Jan

Hi Jan,

You wouldn't know it by the amount of attention paid to browns and other unusual colors, but sales have always shown that the bright, cheerful colored hibiscus are the most popular overall. HVH best sellers for 2010 so far are Acapulco Gold and Rainbow Sherbet although our results are also affected by how many of each variety we have to offer. For example, we didn't have enough Saffron or Simple Pleasures this year for some reason or they would have ranked close to the top.

I'd like to learn some more about how daylillies are classified. Could you give us the quick version?

Thanks,

Charlie

Chris, I missed your post about solving the hybridizers age old quandary. If I ever finish the mystery maybe I should call it UNK x Unk. lol

Charlie

:D

For those who are interested in the HOTY.

The International Hibiscus Society has also a hoty programme. Basically, it works like this:
We have first a photo contest where people show their hybrids, with three bloom photos and basic info on parentage, form, substance and bloom duration. The membership by voting chooses the ones they like the most.

Out of those best ones, The IHS judges choose 10 that they consider the most worthy.

Those first ten ones are chosen for the hoty programme. We have four trialing stations, one in the USA, one in Germany, one in Sicily and one in Brazil, that grow and  test those ten hybrids for three years, submitting a report every six months with a detailed estimation about many characteristics of the bush and bloom, and photos of the bush and bloom.

After that, IHS judges (seven of them) vote, on the basis of all those reports, and the winner is chosen.

We encounter many,many problems in the hoty programme, but we struggle with them the best we can, and we hope that we manage, bit by bit, to promote by that programme a good quality hibiscus hybrid versus a sea of bad hybrids that are in circulation.
You can see the IHS winners,and learn a lot about our programme, our trialing stations, on the links:
http://www.internationalhibiscussociety.org/TPCPhotos/SOTY2003/soty_2003.htm
http://www.internationalhibiscussociety.org/HOTYVote2/index.htm 
http://www.internationalhibiscussociety.org/HOTY/2003/2003.HTM

You are undoubtedly correct in  your assessment of the awards process.  I'm still here, now and then, waiting patiently to find a Copper Moon.  ;)  I don't suppose you've found one for me.  I am also very interested in and invested in daylilies.  The prizes for those seem to go to certain breeders. If you find a Copper Moon, please email me directly at jan-james@att.net.  thanks.

This discussion is just fascinating to me as I have been involved in dog shows for years, and found that the award process does not select at all for the dogs most valuable for whatever purpose at hand (pet, hunt companion, guardian etc).
I'm also an officer for the Epiphyllum Society of America. We have an annual show that is open to all, but epis are difficult to propagate and market commercially; they take 7-10 years from seed to flower, and the plants are so slow-growing that hybridizers find it impossible to make any money at the venture, so mostly we are all in it for fun (no choice LOL). So the Best Seedling or the Best in Show flower are nice awards to win but as with hibiscus, certain varieties are found to be easier to grow and bloom while others are prone to rot or just plain poor growers and eventually die out. so awards need to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt.
I am very interested in getting together a western US Hibiscus society so that we can meet and exchange ideas and share our blooms and experiences....would probably be based out of SoCal but would welcome members from all over. Would include a quarterly newsletter for members. Need to get the foundation laid for our society and welcome input from those who are interested in participating! We could have an annual show but, as with the epiphyllums, the primary objective would be to stimulate public interest in hibiscus.
Charlie, you might enjoy the book called "Orchid Fever"...I couldn't put it down!  :o

Geneva is right on the money with her comments about dog shows. My wife has been heavily involved with breeding and showing dogs for the past 11 years and I can verify the fact that the judging process is a joke. The outcomes frequently have more to do with incestuous relationships between judges and handlers than with the quality of the dogs. This is not sour grapes as my wife has been very successful at it and has had a dog in the top 5 nationally on a continuous basis for ten years. Just a statement of fact. I suspect that some of the same dynamic is in play at hibiscus shows.

Erny

In all the years I've watched the results of hibiscus shows, it has been very noticeable that in TX shows the blooms of TX hybridizers win, in Louisiana the Cajun hybridizers, and in Florida the Fl hybridizers usually win. Even so, it seems that the locals who participate have a great time at the shows and they are a high point of the year for those who participate. No shows in California yet since no one has come forward with the time and skills to organize them. Might happen some day.......

Charlie