Hidden Valley Hibiscus Forum

I never really thought about this since I've been referring to these plants as exotic hibiscus. I see that they can be called both exotic and hybridized hibiscus. My question is since the word hybrid is used a lot does this mean these new cultivars are from mixed ancestry from the hibiscus family?

Excellent question. The terms often used to talk about hibiscus have become confused over time. "Exotic hibiscus" has been used a lot but it really has no meaning. Exotic in general horticulture use just means plants from a different location, like tropical plants growing in North America. All Hibiscus rosa-sinensis hybrids are "exotic" using that meaning.

Hybrid hibiscus is more accurate but once again it applies to all hibiscus that are not species. Don't worry - it gets even more confusing. Karl Linnaeus gave the name Hibiscus rosa-sinensis to a plant that he believed was collected in the wild and that met the criteria to be called a species. Among those are the ability to set seed with pollen from other hibiscus of the same type or its own pollen and to produce offspring that are genetically the same as itself.

Hibiscus rosa-sinensis was cross pollinated with other species found growing on islands off the east coast of Africe and the resulting plants were the first hybrids of Hibiscus rosa-sinensis. Those species were Hibiscus lilliflorus, Hibiscus fragilis, Hibiscus schizopetalus, and Hibiscus genevieve. Later on it was found that hibiscus species from Hawaii such as Hibiscus arnottianus could also be successfully crossed with these other hibiscus species or with their hybrids.

For some reason it became the common practice to refer to the many hybrids resulting from crossing the above mentioned species as hybrids of H. rosa-sinensis. I suspect we have some hibiscus that were never crossed with H rosa-sinensis itself but used other species within the cross-compatible group. We still call them hybrids of H rosa-sinensis even if this is not actually correct.

To move ahead to modern times, all of the so called "exotic" hibiscus are hybrids of H. rosa-sinensis or one of the other cross compatible species. That includes those often referred to as garden variety and those often referred to as cultivars or exotics.

Personally I like the term "modern hybrids" of H. rosa-sinensis to refer to the varieties that have been hybridized in the last 20 years. This would include most of those that HVH sells and most that are entered in hibiscus shows.

BTW, the word cultivar, sometimes abbreviated cv is also used to refer to the modern hybrids of H rosa-sinensis. This is convenient but not accurate since cultivar only means "human cultivated plant" as opposed to a wild growing plant. Almost all the hibiscus hybrids must be cultivated by humans because they do not make viable seeds and will die out in the wild without human help. But, that is another story, for another time.

Conclusion - this is all pretty confusing! The only accurate way to refer to the hibiscus that we usually talk about is as "modern hybrids of H rosa-sinensis and other cross-compatible species". The problem with that is it takes too long to write so as long as we understand what is really meant we can just continue to call them hybrids, exotics or even cvs, despite the inaccuracies.  Any other suggestions?

 

I kinda like  Hibiscus sp. '(insert cv name here)'  Because you know hibiscus is the genus, and since its a hybrid there is no accurate species name.  The 'variety' can refer to the morph, which can describe what it looks like or the region is it from.  Since we name cvs, these names could go within the quotations.  I think that makes the most taxonomic sense in my head.

Example:  Hibiscus sp. 'Heaven Scent'

 just my .02. 
-Chris   

Thanks Charles for the info, I did not find it confusing at all. I used to breed purebred american bobtail cats and i am highly interested in genetics ( animals main animal I love are dogs :)) Some of my cats where hybrids (bobcat and asian leopard cat with domesticated cat). This is what made me ask the question also.

I do not have any suggestions on what to call them Hellxturnhellx sounds like he or she is onto something  :)

Hi Helix and Nievesgirl,

I like your suggestion, too. I'm afraid that 99 percent of the people who read Hibiscus sp. 'Heaven Scent' would not know what it meant exactly but if we were consistent about it they would learn. Do you have a background in biology or botany?

Nievesgirl, your background with animals is fascinating. Cindy and I are both into cats. She paints them and I enjoy watching them. Do you have any photos of your hybrid cats? I would love to see one.

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

I am a biologist, and have had plenty of experience trying to deal with what classifies a species.  In fact, every few years there is often a huge overhaul on phylogenetic trees when someone uses genetic analysis to determine the "relativeness" between two species.  I think it would be interesting to take genetic markers from the original species and compare them to which markers are present in modern hybrids.  Then you could know for sure which species were cross pollinated to make that variety.

-Chris

I took one botany class i was thinking about getting a degree in agriculture but my love for animals is stronger so I am in pierce colleges pre-vet program

Here are some pictures of my cats they are not direct cross. This is Iggy he is like 25% jungle cat ( I wish I had a picture of his dad his dad looks just like a jungle cat but a snow lynx color)
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/kalibobs/Cats/cats013.jpg)
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/kalibobs/Cats/cats011.jpg)

This is winter and she may have jungle cat I am not sure the breeder was not honest
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/kalibobs/Cats/winter.jpg)

This is our bengal we used to have all bengals have asian leopard cat in them. He was about 30lb his name was Shaq
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/kalibobs/Cats/Shaq.jpg)

This Yaz she has 25% jungle cat and like 5% bobcat this is when she was a baby
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/kalibobs/Cats/000_0050.jpg)

These are not my cats but they are beautiful
Here are some nice bengals
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/kalibobs/Cats/328_TRGRCHDicaprioOfStarbengal.jpg)
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/kalibobs/Cats/330_AmerikatsOceliCloudOfStargengal.jpg)

These are savannah cats hybrid of domestic cats and servals
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/kalibobs/Cats/svcc20a120savannahs.jpg)
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/kalibobs/Cats/image010.jpg)
F1 cub 50/50
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/kalibobs/Cats/f1kitten.jpg)

this is ripken he is 25% bobcat I need newer pictures of him he is huge about 25lbs of muscle.
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k72/kalibobs/Cats/ripken1.jpg)

Oh man I want a giant 25 lb cat!  I really like pixie bobs and will perhaps seek one out when I go to graduate school.  I did the whole pre-vet thing, but in the end I decided that dealing with sick animals all day is too depressing.  The only thing that I can suggest for getting into veterinary school is. 1) grades and gre are very important. 2) get those animal experience hours ie. volunteering for a veterinarian or working as a vet tech.   Your experience breeding pixie bobs is unique so be sure to include it in your personal statement.  3) try to stay in the U.S. for schooling, although those Caribbean schools are easier to get into, you have alot of work trying to get your licensing to practice in the U.S.A.  Im pretty sure you said you were in California, so luckily we have two vet schools to choose from!  UC Davis and Western!  Awesome cats and good luck with getting into vet school!

Yeah the pre-vet program guarantees that you will get into any vet school with good grades of course.  So this is why I am at pierce.  They are not Pixie-bobs these are American bobtails , Pixie bobs have ( sad looking eyes that is what i call them anyways lol)  They where the same breed in the 80's but now they are separate and you can see in their face that they are a different breed. Our breed comes in any color Pixie bobs only come in tabby markings/ brown colors like a bobcat.

here is a great link to see the difference ( I have some cats from this breeder )
http://attitudeacres1.homestead.com/Differences.html

Here is another cat we bred http://www.ozbobz.com/Kings.html

Hi Nievesgirl,

   We have something in common!  I just applied to University of GA vet school last year.  Didn't get in, though.  Helixturnhelix is def. right in the advice he/she gave you...  good grades are a must, you need experience, and don't go to the Caribean (sp?).  Anyway, experience is a big thing for most vet schools, which is what cost me my admission.  Although my GPA is much higher than the average applicant and I have tons of animal experience (I train horses and teach riding lessons for a living, grew up on a commercial turkey farm), I didn't get in because I have very limited veterinary experience.  They want to know you're comitted to the field before letting you in.  So go work with a vet-- best to get small and large animal experience.  Any food animal experience is a big plus, as it's pretty rare, and most vets don't want to go into food animal these days.

Good luck with it, and your cats are awesome.  I want a savannah.  :)

Jordan

Nievesgirl:  Those cats are awesome!  Are you currently breeding them, because I might be wanting one in the near future :)

Darkhorse/Jordan:  Funny enough I've been to UGA's vet school and its really nice (I was there for a grad school interview).  At least Athens is a cheap place to live.  Don't feel bad about not getting in this year, it has been one of the worst to get into any type of graduate school because of the increase in applicants due to the downturn of the economy.  Get those animal experience hours! In fact, UC davis's average accepted applicant has 3000 veterinary experience hours O_o! I spent most of my time, (when I wanted to go to veterinary medicine) with an aquarium vet which was one of the coolest experiences of my life.  How many people can say they've assisted in sea otter physicals and bat ray eye surgery? :P  Jordan is completely correct in advising you to get large/food animal experience.  If you display interest in that field you have a very good chance of getting in because there is a huge need for large animal/food vets.  You could even say you are interested in that field even if you aren't and you can just change specialties once you get in. 

Are you guys both interested in small animal medicine or something more exotic?  What schools are you guys looking at? 

-Chris (btw im a guy :P)

Hi , Chris and Jordan

At pierce we have cattle , sheep, pig, alpaca, llamas ( soon to be our llama died in dec so we will be getting 2 more) , chickens, horses, goats.

we have to work with these animals so I am covered with large animals. I just did the chicken unit they have us start out small and work our way up due to safety reasons. I need to get in a clinic but in CA irs hard getting a clinic job , I am not sure what i will do most want experience so I think I will send a resume out to some vets near by stating I need hours and see if I can volunteer and maybe get hired this way.

I love dogs and I would like to work with them but I know there is a real need in livestock vets, I am interested in horses and cattle. I am not sure where I would go. I have experience with marine life too I will be trying to volunteer at the aquarium at the pacific in long beach.

I like exotics but I do not think I would want to work with them much.

Chris I wish I would have know you wanted a kitty I gave most of my cats up for adoption due to my living situation. We kept my two stud cats and one female so we might be breeding them in the future , my friend breed american bobtails also her cattery is http://www.oztoca.com/

her name is Karen and if you contact her tell her Kerry sent you there. She has some cats with my bloodline ( not sure if she still has them) but one became a champion .

Hi Kerry,

Looks like we were on at the same time!  AOP is where I volunteered :P  Dr. Lance Adams is the head vet, he is a pretty cool guy, but can be moody, so tread lightly when he is.  The main Vet tech is Colleen Mclaughlin and shes crazy, loves horses and pinnipeds.  Both are nice and if you actually want to volunteer, the best thing to do is e-mail him directly.  It can be a PITA if you go through their volunteer service.  His e-mail is ladams@lbaop.org, you should just introduce yourself and tell him what you are doing, what your goals are, and why you want to volunteer with him.  Then he will prob let you come in once a week and see what he does.  Fair warning, most of the time it is pretty boring, but when you get to do stuff it is really really cool.  I will contact your friend when I am ready for a cat, prob wont be until October :)  Let me know if you end up volunteering with Lance.

-Chris

Such interesting backgrounds you all have! For some reason we've had a lot of vets order from us over the years. Lots of MDs and other medical types, too. I guess people who care about living things are naturally interested in the plants with the most beautiful of all flowers  -  a little bias showing lol.

Chris, back to the topic earlier in this thread, you mentioned "every few years there is often a huge overhaul on phylogenetic trees when someone uses genetic analysis to determine the "relativeness" between two species.  I think it would be interesting to take genetic markers from the original species and compare them to which markers are present in modern hybrids.  Then you could know for sure which species were cross pollinated to make that variety."

Perhaps the day is coming when it will be easier to do that, or easier to find someone qualified to interest in doing it. In years past some work was done on hibiscus genetics and what was found was not surprising - that Hibiscus sp hybrids have widely varying numbers of chromosomes.

By growing the hibiscus species that are compatible with H rosa-sinensis one of my hopes was to identify traits in these species that I see occurring over and over in the modern hybrids. Ability to root easily is one such trait. That quality seemed to be lost in many of the hybrids that came from crossing with the Hawaiian species and that is what I find when rooting H. arnottianus, the white Hawaiian that was used so often in crosses about 100 years ago.

Anyway, this line of exploration is certainly interesting and I'm hoping we will see some real progress with it one of these days.

Charlie

Hey Chris thanks for the info ! I will type an Introduction up soon.
Also It will be wise to email Karen now. Most breeders have Christmas kittens Karen should be breeding in July so kittens will be ready by dec. Just tell her you are not ready yet and would like to be notified when kittens are born.

Charles I been thinking about this every since I found a link listing hibiscus chromosome numbers, I was surprised to see such variation (again which lead to my first question in this thread)  It makes perfect sense to why some hibiscus hybrids are not good seed setters, maybe the chromosomes are not matching up resulting in no seeds.

Laboratories have been coming up with many things to test on dogs. The newer ones are Iding breeds by DNA and color testing ( what colors the dog carries for breeding)  I wonder if I could find someone interested in helping. I will see if I could contact the head of agriculture at pierce he may have some resources for plants.

I been pondering ideas to test with my hibiscus once I start hybridizing them. If my theories are successful I will be making a website with what I am working on. Plants are much easier than breeding cats or dogs lol because of the maintainece and health testing involved with dogs and cats.

I don't know if looking at chromosome number would be the most accurate method for determining hybrid ancestry, but it is easy enough to do!  The cool thing about plants is when they hybridize with similar species with different chromosome numbers, for example a plant with 10 breeds with a plant with 12, the offspring has an intermediate number of 11.  As you noticed Kerry, the chromosomes would not line up, thus making the offspring sterile.  This observation would be correct if this organism was say a Liger (Tiger x Lion) or Mule.  But allopolyploid plants (the plant with 11 chromosomes) have a really cool way of dealing with this infertility by forgoing one round of cytokinesis (membrane separation), making the new chromosome number in the cell 22.  The reason why you have 22 chromosomes now, is only cytokinesis fails and the cell still undergos DNA replication.  After this process, the chromosomes are able to pair up and the plant is now able to produce gametes and becomes fertile.  Since this process doesnt always occur in plants there are still some hybrids which are infertile.  It would be interesting to see if some bad seed setters, after maturing spontaneously become good seed setters.

Back to the idea of testing hibiscus ancestry.  The most accurate way to do this is to perform genomic analysis on all the ancestral species, and identify species specific loci.  Once these loci are identified, the next thing to do is take the hybrid in question and determine which loci are present.  If a specific loci identified matches an ancestral species, then you can be sure that ancestor was used in the creation of that hybrid.  It is pretty easy to perform these tests now, and it will only get cheaper as time progresses :P

-Chris

At first I was dead set on going into equine medicine, then after working with an equine vet I decided I might enjoy small animal more.  I love cats and horses especially, so I was somewhat undecided about which field to go into.  Right now, though, I'm taking a break from all the stress of school and just training horses.  I'm actually glad I didn't get into UGA for a couple of reasons... one I'm not 100% sure I even want to go into the veterinary field.  I've been thinking a lot lately about working as a law enforcement officer with the ASPCA, something like "Animal Cops" on Animal Planet.  Comes from my vindictive personality I guess.   :P  Two I'm from SC but I moved to CA four years ago, and I don't really want to leave.  If I end up going to vet school later I will probably apply to Davis, although it's much more expensive than UGA.

Anywho, aside from the outstanding beauty of the hibs (I'm with you Charlie, it's my fav too!!), I'm really fascinated with genetics.   It started with equine color genetics a few years back and evolved into genetics of all mammilian species.  Then after getting my first modern hibiscus hybrid I became interested in the plants as well.  The chromosome # differences are amazing.  No doubt that this is why some pods develop without seeds.  For example I think in humans 20-30% of pregnancies are aborted due to genetic problems before the pregnancy is detected.  Plants have a little different "monitoring system," if the cross doesn't work no seeds will even develop, so no "abortion" is needed...

Whew do I know how to go off on a tangent or what LOL!

Equine medicine is sweet.  I have a friend who just graduated from SC state's veterinary program and she is doing an externship in equine medicine in San Diego.  I really wish that I could be in SD, but that will have to wait till school is done.  Davis is one of the top veterinary schools and being a guy helps you a bit considering something like 80% of veterinary school applicants are female.  If you are ok with not staying in cali, Colorado state and Cornell are also top notch :P  I would advise against Western university for the time being, because they have an unusual curriculum and it is too new to know if it is effective. 

Genetics is awesome, I spent 3 years in a genetics lab and the fact that I still find it interesting is a feat in itself.  The new frontier is epigenetics (how the environment effects gene expression) A perfect example of this is how temp, light nutrients and influence hibiscus color and size!  Or how identical twins begin to look different as they age, or suffer from different diseases.  Very cool stuff, and oh boy this is a huge tangent :P

Yeah I'm with you Chris the epigenetics sounds really interesting.  And the hibs are a perfect model.  I don't know that I could do labwork, although I briefly thought about working for Davis one day and doing work on the equine color genetics thing.  I really want to own and operate a small horse breeding facility one day, just with my own horses, and breed quality, athletic sport horses but in unusual colors.

So what do you think you'll end up doing with your background?

I am into dog and cat genetics , with breeding the bobtails it was very tricky.  I am also not sure where I will end up this is the never ending story of my life.

It seems like most of us live in CA, we need to start a CA hibiscus Society

To be honest, I have no idea what I want to be doing.  I started college wanted to be an M.D, switched to Veterinary medicine and now I study bacterial pathogensis.  Go figure!  The only thing I know is I want to end up back in Southern California :)

Chris wrote:
After this process, the chromosomes are able to pair up and the plant is now able to produce gametes and becomes fertile.  Since this process doesnt always occur in plants there are still some hybrids which are infertile.  It would be interesting to see if some bad seed setters, after maturing spontaneously become good seed setters.

Hi Chris and all,

This is very, very interesting. It might explain something that has puzzled me over the years. One such was with Renaissance Blue, which I wrote off as not setting seeds after trying it several dozen times in good conditions where other varieties were setting seeds like crazy. Then several years later someone wrote that he had gotten seeds from his Ren Blue. He did it indoors in a basement under artificial light so I attributed the success to the conditions but it might not have been that afterall. I plan to try it again at my first opportunity and see what happens with a mature bush.

I want to get into this subject more in the future if you are willing. But for now, it's off to work...........

Charlie

I finally had a chance to read this ,  That is very interesting , I had no idea plants could do this.  I was trying to figure out why some hybrid plants are fertile but the parents produced odd number seedlings.

Please take not of what is in red. It is said that hybrid animals are sterile. If the Liger or mule is a female it is possible for them to breed, and reproduce. This is how bengal cats became a breed. F1, F2, F3 geneations produce sterile males. There have been reports of F3 males being fertile but all females are fertile from any of the generations.

Charlie:  I am always willing to discuss genetics, its fascinating and I wish I could play around with hibiscus genetics!  Too bad I don't have very much space to experiment.  At present I just try crossing the best varieties with one another and cross my fingers.  I wish I could be more methodical, but that will have to wait until I have more space and more experience evaluating seedlings.  Maybe even do some statistics!  Haha but that will have to wait.   

Kerry:  That is very interesting about the Bengal cats.  If only they could do what plants can :)  Maybe a little cat tissue culture? :P

I had a random question.  Do you ever backcross your hybrids to the original cv parent in order to get a higher percentage of offspring that have the trait of the good parent that you want, or is it still pretty low the number of good cvs you get?   I guess and example of this would be taking Valentine's day and crossing her to High Voltage again.  Therefore increasing the number of offspring that would have High Voltage's good traits.  Or perhaps crossing them to an offspring like Strawberry cream which is a high voltage self cross.  I dont know if this is true with these hybrids that have such a diverse genetic background, but I thought I would ask if you have any experience with it. 

I think this chart shows what I am asking better than me writing it :P

I wanted to know the same question IMO you type it right because I understand you  ;) This does work with animals , so I am wonder if it would work with plants.

I had another question , How many self crosses have you done Charles ? and how many of the seedlings look almost like the CV that was self crossed?

Hi Guys,

Yes, back crossing is a classic technique used by hibiscus hybridizers, at least some of them. A lot of hybridizing is dusting pollen from whatever is blooming that day onto whatever else is blooming. This is natural since most people have a limited number of plants and often only a few are blooming on any one day. However, those hybridizers who become obsessed :D with it have used back crossing as part of a more planned approach.

However, the problem with back crossing is that most of the hibiscus of the last century were flawed and using them for their good qualities also included their negative qualities. For that reason back crossing has been of limited use for me. Even High Voltage, with its many good qualities, has a way of passing on an attraction to spider mites and thrips that is a big negative in many situations. Midnight Blue is an excellent variety for getting more blue and purple colors into flowers, but the bush is not very good and does not root so I only use it very selectively nowadays and shy away from back crossing with it too often. One always hopes the best traits will prevail, but often they do not.

As better all around cvs are discovered I think back crossing will be more useful and no doubt will be seen a lot.

I have not done many self crosses. I did a lot with High Voltage and again with Rainbow Christie but that is about it. I did get a few cvs that I think are better than average from doing this but not a higher percentage than with other crosses.

There is still so much to learn and explore in all this. It's an excellent adventure we are all taking!!

Charlie

Great Info Charles , I think I will have seeds from Gator pride x Gator pride soon.  It was the only bloom open that day and it was humid and cloudy so I just took a chance :D So far the seed pod is growing.
My other cross I am waiting for seeds is heartbreak hotel x Voodoo magic

Best of luck, Kerry! Sometimes they pods go all through the ripening process and then you open them and..........nada, nothing, empty!  grrrrr

These are interesting crosses, could be something nice comes from them. I've been seeing Erin Rachel x Gator Pride first blooms lately. Both parents are minis and the offspring have been, too, but with good color and form and lots of blooms.

Charlie

I hope there will be seeds , its not too hot over where I am at , we had about 80 degree weather 4 times already , in the am its cloudy and my plants get shade. I do not even have to water them daily.

I saw the parents of Erin Rachel and I was going to try it with gator pride and , Devils' eye ( another mini from barry )

Hi Kerry I hope that you get some seeds!  I'm crossing my fingers :)  Funny enough I just got seeds from a Belle du Jour x Belle du Jour cross yesteday and a Saffron self cross.  I mostly made these crosses because that was the only flower blooming that day :P  The crosses I am really excited about that look about ripe is Saffron x Belle du Jour, Belle du Jour x Rainbow Sherbet,  Belle du Jour x Gator pride, and Saffron x Gator pride :)  My blue ballerina just started to bloom so I will be crossing her with cinnamon girl in an attempt to get some crazy prolific offspring.  I am going to cross my fingers though because summer is here and the mean daytime temperature where i am is high 90's into the 100s :-/   

Thinking more about backcrossing, it doesnt make alot of sense to do with plants that have such varied background because the point of backcrossing is to isolate a specific trait and increase the frequency of that trait, in effect creating a true breeding strain.  I think that trying to create a true breeding strain is the opposite of what hybridizers of hibiscus are trying to achieve.  The point is to make new exciting colors and flowers on strong vigorous bushes.  So I think that the approach I will take in creating new hybrids will to play the hybrid vigor card.  I think that by crossing varieties that were bred independently of one another ( U.S, Tahitian, Australian, and European hybrids) you would effectively introduce new genes and hopefully make more vigorous offspring.  I think Charlie has done this in many of his hybrids.  If you look at the parents of many of his good hybrids, their parents are from two different regions.  Look at 'Love Story' for example, her parents were 'Rosalin' (Aus.) and 'Candy Manners' (U.S.A.)  another would be 'Passion play', a 'High Voltage' (U.S.A) and 'Gwen Mary' (Aus) cross. It would be interesting to see if there is more vigor in the offspring between varieties from different regions, rather than the same.  Another nice thing about these Australian varieties is they are heat tolerant so in using them, hopefully this trait is passed on to the offspring.  I was also looking at maybe focusing on varieties that bloom well in shady conditions.  I think it would interesting to see if crosses between Sleeping Beauty, Delicia Amoris and Blue Ballerina would yield offspring that bloom well in low light conditions.  Then we could finally use hibiscus in a landscape with impatients and ferns:)  I also remember reading that the variety 'Apricot Butter' was a great low light bloomer.  Or maybe we could look at breeding a frost tolerant variety by current CVs that perform well in cool conditions.  I believe that 'Solar Eclipse' and 'Magic Carpet Ride' are two such CVs. There are just so many directions to go, but I guess the best way to start is to get those seed pods :)     

I just realized how many times I wrote "I think" >.< 

What "you think" are pretty solid thoughts, in my opinion. There are a lot of directions to go and all of them take time and persistence to get any meaningful results.

There was a guy, a professional irrigation specialist, who tried to develop more cold hardy root stock hibiscus a few years ago. He did the hybridizing and got the new plants growing. His idea for testing them was to leave them outside all winter without any special protection. He lived in southern California but not right on the coast so some cold weather was expected. Unfortunately, that winter brought some colder than normal freezes and his entire crop of seedlings was wiped out. sigh.........he gave up trying for cold hardy after that. Something similar happened to Ross Gast, an early hybridizer whose main goal became trying to create varieties that would do better in California's unique climate. Ross Estey is the variety of his that has survived. Many of his other new varieties were wiped out in one bad cold snap although some still exist in 2 arboretums in LA and San Diego.

Anyway, hybrid vigor is a good thing to go for. Anything other than another "show flower" is good in my view. I do love the spectacular show flowers but growing many of them is a challenge (or a pain, depending on pov). It's no surprise that thousands of such varieties are now extinct.

Good luck, I'm especially curious about the self crosses you made and what comes from them.

Charlie

Thats too bad about the more cold tolerant plants, its frustrating after all the work you put into growing the seedlings and seeing them bloom only to have a cold snap wipe them out.  I planted the seeds yesteday so hopefully some will sprout.  In about 1-3 years I should have something to show :)  Until then, I will just have to enjoy the new seedlings that you have to show :D

-Chris

I was reading that ross Estey was the only one that survived,  I went on a hibiscus hunt yesterday walking through my neighborhood.  I looked at the big nice hibiscus plant that I think is Ross Estey. It has a lot of new growth ,  the leaves where shiny and big , no white flies or insects on it.  I need to get some root hormone so I can take a cutting from it.  The other unknown cultivar I was talking about had new growth and it was blooming.  I also found some nice hibiscus @ LAX  :D I will see if I can get a cutting from this cultivar , at first I thought it was hula girl but it is something else. Again this one has big foliage , shiny leaves blooms like crazy and its left out in the winter for years. Its a whole row of the same cultivar bordering the parking lot.  All three of these hibiscus I found are left alone and never get fertilizer , or sheltered and they are doing well.

The heartbreak hotel x voodoo pod broke off yesterday , Where I have the mother plant is been to much sun , I opened up the pod and saw only one seed that was growing. It was almost done too , all well . I see another pod on my heartbreak and i did not pollinate it so i think its a self cross.  The gator pride gets more shade so its pod is still there.

Haha Kerry, if you want a "Crown of Bohema" there are a bunch of them in Westchester and on the LMU campus.  That is right next to LAX if you are looking for some good cuttings.  I also saw a large "white wings" on 80th along with a good sized "brilliant"  You know theres a problem if you are driving around looking for plants to take cuttings from:)

HAHHA I know I do have a problem , I got the root hormone today  ;D.   Yeah no doubles for me lol or white wings there are a bunch every where !  I am only after not so common cultivars I see surviving with out care.