Hidden Valley Hibiscus Forum

So I just comitted spider mite genocide on my little Black Dream plant.  I didn't want to use chemicals so I used the drowning in 110 degree water technique I learned from HVH.  Does this method work on any other hibiscus pests?

Also, a tip for capturing most of the soil in the tub so it doesn't clog your drain and you can put it back in the pot... if you have a fish tank, use your net to catch the soil chunks, sticks, etc.  This works particularly well on the "floaters" that are next to impossible to grab by hand.  This should get everything but the fine soil particles that shouldn't be a problem for your drain anyway.  A kitchen strainer should also work just as well.

That's creative! Thanks for sharing the experience and the tips.

Charlie

Hey, Dark Horse, I was committing spider-mite-ocide today too!  I gave one room full of house hibiscus their yearly spider mite bath today too. I think it does get aphids and whiteflies, thrip larvae, and possibly even other impending bugs too, because it sure does keep my plants clean for a long time. But the best thing is the tiny cyclamen mites and minute invisible mites that can trash all my houseplants - it gets every one of every kind of mites.

I like your fishnet idea! I think I'll try it! I use a kitchen strainer for my small plants that fit in the kitchen sink, but was thinking of buying some gauze or cheesecloth to wrap around the bigger pots before I dunk them. I'll let you know if I figure out a way to make that work.

One other thing - be sure to clean the area that you put the plant back into. You don't want spider mites to crawl right back onto the plant from the shelf, wall, or floor. I kind of do a spring cleaning in each room as I go - a pain in the neck but at least it lasts for a long time. I'm far from a virtuous housekeeper, so my house probably likes getting one thorough cleaning a year!

Cindy

That's a good idea with the gause/cheese cloth.  Then you wouldn't even have to worry about cleaning the tub or sink.

*sigh*  Now my little plant is beginning to lose its leaves.  I don't think it enjoyed me holding it underwater for 10 min.  The water was exactly 110 and I waited exactly ten minutes.  I've never done this before so I wasn't quite sure what to expect.  I've gotten it down to one of two possibilities...
1- They weren't spider mites in the first place, and whatever the prob is wasn't resolved by the treatment.
2-  This is a reaction to the treatment.

I'm hoping the plant is just unhappy and will recover... I'm pretty sure they were spider mites.  Although there were no webs on growth tips, there was webbing on the undersides of the leaves, and the webs had little white dots in them.  The leaves were a mottled yellow and "sticky," almost like aphids but I figure it's from the mites sucking the chlorophyl out of the plant.

What do you guys think?  Should it survive if I followed the directions exactly?  Oh forgot to mention, this is an outdoor plant.

 

Hi DarkHorse,

Don't panic if some leaves fall off. I once cooked a whole bathtub of baby plants at 115 (so now I lower it to 110) degrees for over 30 minutes when I forgot about them (which is why I always use a timer now). Every plant lost every single leaf and I thought the plants were surely dead. But they came back stronger than ever and acted as if they had had a hard pruning, growing tons of new branches. But if you're sure your water was only 110 degrees and it was only 10 minutes, it should only lose a few leaves. You need to be sure to pull off any yellow or yellowing leaves anyway, and hopefully it won't lose very many green leaves.

If you're ever in doubt about spider mites, you can send us pictures. We can spot those little monsters anywhere!

Keep us posted! 

So I just plucked all the new yellowing leaves off the plant.  It has two or three small, green leaves left.  I am hoping for the best.  So far the leaves that are green appear to be healthy.  Maybe I'll be lucky and get lots of new branches from this experience.

I did have an idea, Cindy.  Pantyhose!  They should make run-proof pantyhose by now, right?  Anyway, what I was thinking depending on the size of your pot...

Get a larger pair of pantyhose and cut them into individual legs.  Pretend the bottom of the pot is the "foot" and slide it into the leg.  Tie the top portion of the hose tightly around the base of the plant.  In theory it sounds like this might work.  I don't own any pantyhose but next time I need to dunk a plant I think I might try this out.

Update on the little Black Dream...  Two more leaves fell off, leaving now five small leaves that were new growth before the treatment.  It seems like these leaves are healthy and won't drop off.  I'm crossing my fingers but it looks like it's going to be ok.

Hi everyone,

I accidentally (and airheadedly!) stumbled upon a change to my spider mite treatment yesterday, and I think I like it better.

I have a new, young and tender Presidential Affair that is all budded up in a 4" pot, and I wanted to try growing it as a houseplant to see how it does. I never bring a new plant into the house without giving it a spider mite treatment first, but I didn't want to make it drop the buds! Then when I inspected it closely, I saw a couple of white specks on it. I couldn't tell if they were whitefly, baby aphids, snowscale, baby mealybugs, or just white marks, but I never want to take a chance in the house. So I decided I HAD to bite the bullet, give up the buds, and do the treatment.

So.... thinking it might save the buds if the water weren't quite so hot, instead of 110 degrees, I filled my sink with nice warm, bath-temp water, probably only 90-100 degrees. I didn't check with a thermometer. But it felt warm and nice on the inside of my wrist. Then I popped the plant in the water, weighted it down with a plate, looked at the time........ got distracted, forgot all about it, came back AN HOUR LATER! Yikes!!!!!!!! Remember how I always say to "set a timer so you don't forget?" I didn't!!!!!!!!! The poor plant was completely submerged in the water for an hour and 3 minutes!

I was sure the plant would be badly damaged, whipped it out and stood it up. It looked great! There were none of the signs of waterlogging in the leaves that I usually see with the hotter water. This morning it still looks good! The couple of white specks are gone, the plant looks pristine, and the buds are still there. I'll let you know how it does over the next couple of weeks - whether it loses any leaves and buds.

I got our original drowning spider mite treatment protocol from a university professor who is an expert in spider mites, so I thought I should follow it exactly. But for hibs, now I'm thinking the less-hot water for longer time might be better, with the added advantage of possibly killing any other pests that could be hanging onto the hib. I'll watch this plant and let you know how it does, then experiment some more, and keep you posted.

Cindy, THE EXTERMINATOR!

I will have to try that Cindy , I think I have spider mites my poor cinnamon girl is in bad shape its has thrips and mites I think. I see not webs but the leaves are turning Yellow !!!!

I found this interesting !

http://homeharvest.com/beneinsspidermites.htm

I also found this for Thrips
http://homeharvest.com/beneinsthrips.htm

Beneficial or predatory insects are very tempting to use to control insect pests. I've tried them a few times with mixed results. I know of at least one big commercial nursery that uses them instead of chemical pesticides but because they must be successful the nursery releases literally millions of predator bugs throughout the year. It is wishful thinking to hope that one release of a few predators will be a permanent fix for pests. It takes a lot of releases but if it can be made to work it will avoid the use of chemicals. One problem is that the predators must have food to eat, so if there are not pest insects they will starve or leave. If there are pest insects it is easy to have their levels climb too high before the predators can do the job on them. At home it may not matter as much if there is some small insect damage to the plants as long as the predators keep them pests from going out of control.

Anyway, if anyone tried out the predator insects please relate your experiences to us!

Charlie

I don't have any experience in the realm of predator insects (although I have heard of them being used on horse farms to control fly populations, apparently it helps), but I do have another question about the appearance of spider mites.  Do they normally cause the veins to yellow first, then the rest of the leaf?  I have several plants that are displaying these symptoms, and most of my others are showing classic spider mite symptoms despite my best efforts.  I'm just too low on space to quarantine, but I'm wondering if there may be something else going on with the yellow vein thing.  I did bring my Island Girl inside as a control and gave it Cindy's bath treatment, so that should have taken care of all pests.  I put it on top of my entertainment center where my cats can't eat it.  :P

Hmm- yellow veins are a lot less common than green veins surrounded by yellow leaf tissue. The latter is usually solved by applications of iron and/or magnesium. If the veins themselves are yellowing that would imply low nitrogen but that would be unlikely if you are using fertilizer regularly. Heavy watering without fertilzer could cause it I suppose. Can you post a photo?

Spider mites do suck the green chlorophyll out of cells but usually it is all over the leaf and affects the area in between the veins mostly.

We will be interested to hear how long the washed and isolated Island Queen goes without getting new spider mites. The most likely way for it to get infested is for you to touch it with mites on your hands from dealing with other plants. They also are so tiny that they blow in the wind and drift onto plants, as well as come inside on pets. Makes it hard to keep them out forever!

Charlie

I am getting more concerned with my cinnamon girl , it's leaves keep turning yellow dispite how many times I am srapying it with neem oil.

the first week I used spinosad and then 5 days later neem oil , then neem oil again 5 days later. The thrips look like they are dying ( no more scratches on flowers) but cinnamon girl is the only one that has yellow leaves. I have sprayed everything to makes sure the other cv's do not get spider mites ( if that) I have them all close together so it makes me wonder how come my other plants are fine ?

Hi Kerry,

This is where a magnifier comes in handy. The only way to really know if spider mites are present is to examine the undersides of yellowing leaves for the mites. Under sufficient magnification they look like little crabs running around. You could also try the "dunk the plant in the bathtub" routine described somewhere in the forum, or just lay the plant on its side and use a forceful spray of water from the hose on the undersides of all leaves. Might not be practical in your situation though. Remeber that mites have to travel between plants in order to infest them and if the plants are not touching it is much harder for non-flyers like mites to spread.

Yellow leaves can come from pesticide applications. Just something to keep in mind.

Charlie

Those leaves are typical spider mite leaves. How about the underside - what do you see?

Charlie

this is why u want the edit option :P

LOL exactly stupid photobucket was not copying the img code !

Great close-ups, Kerry!

What you see is the battlefield after the battle. Mites are gone but their detritus and damage is left behind. Mite damage often is observed showing up several days after the mites have been killed off. I don't know why this is but I have noticed it often enough. It is worrisome because you can't help but think the damage is new and that the spray failed to do the job but then a closer check shows that there are no more mites present.

In this case I am only commenting about the leaf parts that are in sharp focus in the photos, but assume that you looked closely all over the leaf and it all looks the same, with no little crabs scampering about. If that is the case then you did kill off the mites and this damage occurred before your last treatment.

As always with most pests on hibiscus, the surest way to be rid of them for an extended time is to treat the hibiscus twice a week for 2 weeks and if in doubt add a 5th treatment midway through the 3rd week. That breaks the life cycle and makes sure all young from existing eggs are eliminated and none mature to egg laying age. Then, if no new ones are introduced to the group the problem is solved. Thus, the suggestion to quarantine or even treat all new plants that are brought in.

Charlie

I will double check all of the leaves and make sure I do not see any. If I don't see any would you think it would be ok to spray spinosad or hort oil ? The rest of the plants that are next to it have 0 yellow leaves and are doing fine.

It's always ok and often a good idea to spray preventively rather than waiting for problems - particularly when using hort oil or other non-chemical type sprays. Only you want to avoid having the sun hit the oil, as you know. Spinosad is only useful against thrips and some other insects that are not a problem for hibiscus such as the Med Fruit Fly. You remember when they find the Medit. Fruit Fly here in California they announce that aerial spraying is being done to eliminate it? It's spinosad that they usually drop from the planes onto everything below. People freak out about it, understandably, but spinosad is the mildest effective spray around and probably does no harm other than to the fruit flies and thrips which is similar to flies anyway.

Charlie

Hey Charlie,

Delayed reaction again, but I went out to look for leaves with yellow veins only and don't have any at the moment.  Mostly, this prob is occurring on my Silver Memories.  It gets the same HVH fert, booster, and Supernova that the others get, so I don't think it's a problem with nutes.  Most of my yellow leaves on all my plants look just like Kerry's, so I know I have spider mites going on... ugh... I just looked back to some photos from a couple of months ago and my 5th Dimension and Silver Memories look like crap now!! 


I've dunked all my 4" plants along with my Swamp Music, Gator Pride, and Cinnamon Girl.  My little High Voltage and the other three were all showing signs of mites.  They're all now quarantined inside my house.  I'm glad you mentioned that mite damage can show up a couple of days later, because my High Voltage and Gator Pride both got dunked yest. morning and I came home from work tonight to more "spider-mite-yellow" leaves!  Had I not read your post I would have freaked.  I will let you know more updates.  The washed Island Girl that I brought in first is still separated on top of my entertainment center and looks perfectly clean.  No yellow leaves or dropped buds from the treatment!!  My bathtub, on the other hand, does NOT look perfectly clean now (not that it ever does!!)..hehe

More to come later on the drama of these !#$^@#^ spider mites!!!  :P

Jordan

I been spraying and spray and I still have leaves coming of of cinnamon girl ! should the damage continue on this long ? I guess I will do the tub treatment tonight sigh !

Ah... so today i just found out i have spider mites on my hibiscus :(
I dunked it in the sink for 30 minutes, but i still saw a spider mite walking across the soil. Should i have left it in the water for a longer time?

Well it's been almost a week since I did my Chariots of Fire and it is still showing new yellow leaves.  I keep plucking them off... grr!!

Laura, it sounds like you may not have spider mites... are you sure that's what it is?  I can't see them at all with my eye alone and I have 20/20 vision.  If you can see one walking across the soil you must be superhuman!! :)

Lol! wish i was superhuman. I have to admit they were not easy to see. At first glance I didn't see anything but i as I watched, i saw them scurry across the leaf. I'm pretty sure thats what they were since my leaf was turning yellow. Anyways, I soaked the plant longer with warmer water and now i don't see any more. Hopefully this killed whatever it was.

Hi Guys,

Cindy says that when she dunks the plants long enough to take care of the mites the plants will still have some leaves turn yellow for up to 3 weeks. Also, its useful to keep in mind that hibiscus leaves do not last a full year. The plants change their leaves normally twice a year, not all at once but gradually one or two at a time. Some of the yellow leaves that we see are natural, and can be removed without concern that they are the result of mites. Having a magnifier handy to check out the underside of any yellow leaf for mites is also good for peace of mind and as a guide for figuring out if treatment is needed or not.

Charlie

Oh good, 3 weeks is longer than what I would have thought.  I've been obsessed with killing these things since the infestation got worse and worse...  I think I have several casualties, unfortunately.  Time will tell.  :(

Laura,

The water bath should have gotten everything.  Maybe it's a good thing that I'm not seeing spider mites at this point.  lol

 :o @ 3 weeks no wonder why my cinnamon girl looks so bad. I have not seen any spider mite just yellow leaves. I gave a bath to all of my hibiscus except two. So this should have killed them all.

Has anyone heard of or used diatomaceous earth as an insecticide? It supposedly kills pests like aphids, spidermites, and thrips.

Good question, Laura!

Diatomaceous earth has a lot of word of mouth supporters and is sold as an organic pesticide but I haven't found any university or industry studies of its use in horticulture. I have not tried it in the HVH greenhouse or our garden but I like the idea of it.

In theory this material pierces the coating of many insects, and its ability to attract moisture hastens the loss of water by insects that are wounded by its sharp edges, thus causing them to die of dehydration. That means that for it to work an insect, mite, slug, ant or what have you must come into direct contact with the substance. Since it is a powder it is easiest to use applied to the surface of the soil or potting mix around plants. Doing that would not help much with spider mites since they do not travel from plant to plant by walking over the soil surface.

DE could be sprinkled on leaves which might do some good. But, mites feed on the underside of leaves and spend most of their time on the undersides so once again it seems to me that they would not come into contact with the DE easily.

I hope someone will try DE on or around their hibiscus and let us know if they get some benefit. The material is almost pure silica which will not hurt the plants and actually is beneficial as a nutrient.

Anyone with more experience with DE? 

Charlie

Hello all,
  I'm new in the neighborhood, and unfortunately this has to be my first post :(  First of all I have 3 beautiful plants that I just got from HVH, Saffron is a blooming champ!!  My profile photo is with its first bloom, its yellow because it budded in the transit box across country to get to me, but it is 10"!! 

  I have a Belle du Jour with seriously yellowing leaves that keep getting worse no matter what insecticide application I use.  I have Neemed, Used 30 day Bayer Rose & Flower insect killer, and water blasted it!!!  I have a couple other plants that are starting to yellow too.  I just looked under Belle's leaves and saw the little monsters moving around with a magnifying glass. 

  I don't understand.  I have applied enough bug spray to kill a cow!  Why are these still here??  I don't want to loose Belle!  Saffron & Cindy's heart is happy and healthy.  Cajun Blue is starting to yellow and so is my tiny Gabriel. 

  Please help me...  Do I dunk them?  I don't know this method, as I am new to the tropical hybrids.  I posted photos for you to see, the yellow arrow is pointing to one bug that is crawling around.

Thanks,
Kristen

Hi Kristen, welcome to the neighborhood! Great photo of that big Saffron bloom.

The reason that the spray is not getting rid of the spider mites is that mites are not insects and are not affected by normal insecticides. What you can use to get rid of them is horticultural oil. This is a highly refined, lightweight oil that smothers the mites. You can find some at a local garden center or we have it in our online store, too. I would not recommend waiting though, the sooner you can get the oil and spray every surface of the plants with it the better it will be for the hibiscus. There are special "miticides" that work on mites in a chemical way but they are for commercial growers and usually you have to have a permit to buy them. The oil works almost as well.

Caution - use the oil in the evening or on an overcast day and keep the plant out of direct sun for a full day after using. Actually, you can use it any time if you move the hibiscus into the shade first. It is critical to cover every surface of the plant, most importantly the undersides of the leaves where the mites feed.

You will find other techniques here and there on this forum, most of them being variations on washing the plants by submerging them in water. This works, too, but is a bit messy for my taste. My wife likes to do it on her smallest plants but I prefer spraying with oil. You may have to do it every 3-4 days for a couple of weeks to be sure all the mites are gone. Then try to make sure the hibiscus are not touching each other so that any mites that come along can't spread quickly to other plants.

One last tip - any leaves that have started to turn yellow are going to fall off soon, whether treated or not, so it is a good idea to remove them right away because the mites that are on them will not be able to spread to other leaves if you get rid of the infested leaves. Don't worry, in summer new leaves grow back quickly.

Keep us posted.

Charlie

Oh no, Kristen!  Not the week before your wedding!!!!!!  If I were you, I would just haul them all into your bathtub, fill the tub up with warm water, leave them completely submerged for 45 minutes, then drain out the water, stand them up to drain, and your spider mites will be gone all at once. It does make a huge mess in the bathtub, but it kills the mites immediately. A couple of warnings though:'

1) Clean up well all around the area where the plants were!  Spider mites can hang out on walls, windows, in grass, etc. Hose down grass or patios really, really well. Spray window cleaner all over walls, windows, window sills, etc and clean them really well.

2) Bathe ALL your plants, even the ones that show no signs of spider mites. All it takes is one mama bug that climbed onto one clean plant to start the whole cycle all over again.

3) Wash your watering can and any trays you stand your pots in too.

If you use warm water, like for a baby's bath, you won't get yellow leaves afterward, and even buds won't drop sometimes.  Hot water will make the leaves yellow and buds drop for sure, so I like to use only warm water now.

If you need more help, just holler!
Cindy

Charlie covered it but I just wanted to add that I have been having fantastic results with the horticultural oil.  Just make sure you don't spray the concentrate directly on the leaves... use the diluted version, whether it be from a garden hose or the ready to spray bottle.  One would think this would be common sense but... ahem... some people have done it.   ::)

If you only have a few plants too go ahead and treat all of them at once.  There could be mites on Saffron and Cindy's Heart that you haven't seen yet.  To completely eradicate an infestation I find that it's best to treat everyone with or without symptoms.  This is especially important if your plants are indoors or in a location where space is limited and they are close together.  If you've touched an infested plant and then another, chances are you've already spread the mites that way as well.  Finally, cleaning the area around the plants is important too, or the mites that have fallen off the plant could just crawl right back on.

Thank you all so much for your help.  I don't know which method to use.  Belle du Jour is in a 2 gallon pot, so bathing her might be a big job.  Maybe I bath everyone else, and use the "All Seasons Horticultural & Dormant Spray Oil"  that I have.  Dilute it in a spray bottle as listed on the bottle, and spray the big ones...

My Belle is dealing with the same problem and man do mites just love Belle!  I have had the hardest time getting rid of mites on her, she is even outside and they are attacking her like crazy.  I am hoping that some beneficial insects show up soon, the hot water dunking is not enough for this infestation!

So, because I had an hour to shower and get to work (I bartend) I decided to mix up the oil I mentioned before and spray everyone.  I moved everyone into the shade and sprayed all over.  I hope I got the liquid measurements right.  I have a 32 oz spray bottle.  The recommendation is for 2.5-4 Tbsp oil to one gallon water.  I used 1.5 Tbsp for the 32oz bottle.  I'm really horrible at math.  Do you think I should do the big dunk tomorrow morning too??  I also scrubbed the areas where they live with a scrub brush and dish soap.  The only place that is difficult is behind Belle, there is a screen.  I did a quick spray and a run over with the scrub brush, but not much.  UGGG!!! 

On a happier note, here is a pretty photo of the best hibiscus on earth who bloomed again yesterday.  Safron! Thanks Cindy & Charlie for finding it for me last month.  You rock.  Now I want Vin Extraordnair and Confection Perfection after looking at the June forum!

Thanks everyone,
Kristen

Kristen, that's about as perfect a Saffron bloom as you can get. Very nice photo!

Belle du Jour for some unknown reason is very attractive to spider mites in our greenhouse. I go out of the way to spray them weekly even when they don't appear to need it. However, the interesting thing to me is that the 4 plants of Belle that are in our garden don't have any problems with spider mites. I can only conclude that predator insects that feed on mites are also attracted to this variety and take care of this problem in the garden.

Sometimes it's not the variety but the age of the plant that makes spider mites more of a problem. Older plants develop many craggy places on the hard bark for insects to hide in and it can be more difficult to cover all these places with spray. Not impossible, just harder.

The oil/water mix you made is a little strong - equivalent to 6 tablespoons of oil per gallon of water - but should be OK as long as the plant was not left in direct sun. One tablespoon per 32 ounce spray bottle will give you the  rate of 4 tablespoons per gallon that is within what the manufacturer is recommending.

At worse you might get some yellowing of leaves from the rate used, but there are already plenty of those from the mites. New leaves will grow in soon so don't worry about the leaf loss. This fine grade of oil evaporates during the day and you probably won't even be able to see it tomorrow. For best results plan on spraying the plant again on Sunday. For sure clean out any fallen leaves or other loose stuff that may be around the base of the plant and on top of the soil. Mites and mite eggs could be in the debris so cleaning out the pot is an important step.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Charlie

I got confused with the math.  I sprayed everyone, even Saffron and Cindy's Heart who aren't showing any signs of bugs.  I put them all in the shade yesterday morning and left them there for a day and 1/2 until just now (midnight).  There leaves are all shiny and pretty that's for sure.  I cleaned the area around them too. 

Belle looks to be an older plant.  I just got her about 3-4 weeks ago from you in a 2 gallon pot.  She has been cut back a bit and has all new growth growing from her almost 2" base!  But she is only about 2.5' tall. 

Question, I use the entire mixture of fertilizers you suggest once a week, booster, Super nova, HVH special fertilizer, peroxide, & soap...  Saffron and Cindy's Heart look amazing!  There leaves are HUGE, shiny & deep green.  But I only got Cindy to bloom twice and they didn't last more then a day.  Saffron seemed to slow a bit too, Belle only gave me one bloom.  Am I doing something wrong with the fertilizer?

Thanks for all your help!  I love your Forums!  They are great and so helpful to a newbie like me!!
Kristen

Hi Kristen,

The Belle du Jour is an older plant - probably her 3rd summer now which is why the base of the main stem is so thick. She was cut back hard last spring which is why she is not very tall yet. Also, this plant needs to be repotted. Over time soil is leached from pots and there is less volume of roots and these older plants often have much less soil in them than when they were first planted. Roots are needed to get the best growth and blooming - many hormones are manufactured in the roots so healthy roots and plenty of them give us the best performing hibiscus.

You can either take the plant out of the pot and add a good potting mix to the bottom and then place the hibiscus back in the same pot, or you can repot into a new and slightly larger pot. Either way will provide room for the roots to grow and the stems of Belle will grow a lot, too. However, due to the spider mite attack you should wait until that quiets down and you see a little new growth coming on the plant. You can send us a photo of the bush if you are in doubt about whether it is ready for repotting.

Your fertilizer program sounds good, as long as the proportions are within a normal range.

When you say the leaves are huge that suggests to me that the plants are not in a lot of sun. Many hibiscus hybrids have larger leaves than their older relatives but lower light levels tell the plants to grow larger leaves so that they can gather in as much light as possible. If your hibiscus are in lower light (compared to full all day sun) this would also explain a slowing down of blooms. Hibiscus like conditions that stay the same day after day and will perform best after being in one location for awhile so that they adapt well to those conditions. Your plants are still adapting but you will get the best results for the rest of this summer if you put them in bright conditions and leave them there until fall forces them indoors.

Cindy's Heart flowers last much more than one day so that is a concern. If you can, post a photo of the one you have so I can see the leaves well. Also check the bottom of the stem to see if you can see where it was grafted (it might not have been but I'd like to know). Hopefully one day bloom was just a fluke due to changes in environment or something like that.

One last thing to watch for is bud drop. If the hibiscus are making buds but the buds fall off before opening that is completely different than if the plants are not making new buds at all.

Good luck with the next step in your hibiscus adventure!

Charlie

Hey Kristen,

My Cindy's Heart is having issues opening flowers too, I had one open in the box and it lasted a day after it was out.  I didnt know when it bloomed so it could have been open longer.  All of her new buds keep turning yellow and falling off, I sprayed for thrips using Bayer, but still yellowing buds.  Its frustrating because all the other plants do not have this problem.  Any ideas as to why this is happening? 

 

Chris, my P's Purple dropped a few buds yesterday too. I opened one of them and look what I found :( It's about 4mm long, all stretched out.

Did you open yours to see if anything was crawling inside?

UGH I need to vent, I just found mites on my Black Dragon today.  I've been having some minor infestation issues due to a few plants coming in with mites, but now that it has been hot the population is exploding!!!  Anyway with the spacing between my plants the mite spreading must be coming from my fingers.  Guess I'm not very good at keeping my hands to myself.    :o

Anyway my goal is to have the mites eliminated again before this winter when I have to bring all the plants in the house.  They'll be living in very close quarters again at that time.  Until then horticultural oil every three days in the evenings.  A plus side is the hose end bottle lasts forever! 




Kristen and Chris about the bud drop/short bloom time...


Chris, any chance the bud drop could be from shipping stress?  I've had small buds yellow and drop as late as 2 weeks after shipping.  Did you just get the plant in the mail recently?


Kristen, same goes for your short bloom time.  I've noticed that it takes a good month or so for the plant to be blooming in the same location for bloom time to become ideal.  I don't know if your plants are outdoors or if its hot where you are but that can have something to do with shorter bloom time too.  Heat speeds up all metabolic processes, so buds develop faster.  Unfortunately this also can mean shorter bloom duration.  This is what I've seen, anyway.  My Confection Perfection opened yesterday (while I was at work grr) and said nope, too hot!  It was closed before I got home last night.
 

Hey Jordan,

Its been about three weeks since I got it (I think) All the small buds are intact and growing, but when they get a certain size they turn a bit yellow.  I thought it was thrips, but I just treated for them.  We will see if the next batch turns yellow or not. 

As far as spidermites are concerned, the mites can catch the wind and get deposited on your plants.  Is it windy and dusty where you are?  The other possibility is they are riding on your hands.  This might seem a bit drastic, but I use the waterless hand sanitizer when I am working between plants.  I think the alcohol in the sanitizer kills the mites you get on your hands and I haven't had any spread since I started doing that.  Also, since you have a hose you could wash under the leaves of all your plants, I wash under the leaves twice a week :)  This should clean out dust and any possible mite colonies before they get bad.  Hope this helps :)

Jordan, I'm really glad to hear that you like the hose end sprayer version of the hort oil. That same type is available for spinosad but few have availed themselves of the convenience. For those who aren't aware of them, the hose end oil and spinosad are canisters that you thread onto the end of a hose like you would a watering wand. The oil or spinosad is concentrated in the canister but is automatically mixed at the right amount when you turn on the hose and direct it at the plants. Couldn't be a more convenient and simple way to apply pesticide, seems to me.

Charlie

Dark Horse,  I think that the high triple digit temps we have been having the last 2 weeks are probably a reason for the lack of buds.  I will give you some photos of Cindy's Heart's gorgeous bush! 

I'm including one photo (the last one) of a flower that I added pollen to, let it fall naturally when dead, and left the pod.  It has been on the bush, am I supposed to leave it alone?  Do the seeds come from that?  Or does the plant grow a separate pod of seeds?  It may be a really stupid question...  But since I sprayed the oil, the pod turned yellow.  And on Saffron, the pod did the same and then dropped off.  I never read anywhere what to do between pollinating a flower and waiting 6 weeks for seeds.

Can I get this hose end sprayer at any good nursery?  And what is a good rotation to get in the habit of when it comes to bug protection?
Thanks for all the help.  I reapplied oil again today to all the plants.  Do worm castings help with bugs?  I bought some from Charles and Cindy and haven't done anything with them yet.

Thank you all!!

I cant post any photos, it says the upload file is full.  I made them really small too...  I wanted to show you photos of Cindy's heart's bush.

Don't worry about the pods turning yellow, when you have triple digit weather your chance of having a sucessful pollination is very slim. Also you have to make sure that the variety you are pollinating sets seed.  Of the two that you mention only Saffron is a known seed setter.  Cindy's Heart may, but it is probably going to only set seed under mild conditions.  The best way to increase sucess of pollination of a known seed setter, is to pollinate during overcast days or moving the plant to shade until the seed pod ripens. 

Another variety that I think would be good to use as a seed setter is Belle du Jour, it set up seeds reliably for me.  Haute Courture also set seed very well for me as well.  Before I lost my Burnished Gold plant I got tons of seeds from that plant.  Hopefully it will live on in the seedlings I sent Charlie. Perhaps we will see a few available in the store in the next few years.

Test of Photo upload.

This is a first bloom, 2 actually, on a seedling plant that is Simple Pleasures x Enlightenment. Very cheerful 7 inch flowers and loads of buds on the young plant.

Whoops, I get the same message, Kristen. It could be that the forum had taken up so much storage space that we need to buy more, Cindy will check that out tomorrow. Thanks for letting us know.

Charlie

Kristen,

   Sounds like your crosses didn't take, but as Chris said with temps in triple digits they're not likely too.  After the flower is pollenated and the spent bloom falls off, you don't do anything with the pod.  If the cross took, you will see it start to swell as the weeks go by, then it will turn yellow and start to crack open.  Best to let it turn brown then harvest the seeds but you have to be careful.  Pods will sometimes fall off on their own when ripe or nearly ripe-- keep an eye on them so you don't lose any seeds.

   As for the hose end sprayer, I got mine at Home Depot.  Can't wait to see your CH picture!!


Jordan

OK, Cindy tells me the problem is fixed. I'm going to try it with a photo of the seedling I described earlier that is Simple Pleasures x Enlightenment. Here goes.

Charlie

Very Cheerful!  Its like Simple pleasures but with a less distinct eye :)

Hmmm, looks like I'm joining the 'Mites-on-Belle' club. My little one in the 8" pot has caught the bug, so to speak. At least I think it's spidermites, not sure since these guys are brown (or dark red?) and very easy to see. Definitely not the red mites, which are bigger, but I think so far all the spider mites I've seen were light colored. Do spider mites come in brown?

Great beauty Charlie!!  Love it.  As for the mites, I have been spraying every three days regardless of whether I see bugs or not.  How long should I do this?  Everyone is starting to look pretty good.  Saffron looks like it has about 50 buds startin on it...  Don't know what will happen with me spraying the heck out of it every three days, but I rather be safe then sorry!  It's my favorite CV so far.

It has been hot over in the East cost for sure!  It is stuck in the 90's for the next week.  Yay, I get to wear a really heavy wedding dress on Saturday for my beach wedding.  90º phew, nuthin!  Pray for no humidity.

I will try to post the Cindy's Heart bush photos, what a beauty, now just need some blooms.

~Kristen

Great looking bush!

Kristen, CH looks awesome!  Where on the east coast are you?

I am in CT, on the shoreline.  Clinton.  Big summer hot spot.  We triple in population during these months.  I just looked at the pod that fell off of CH.  It is shown as yellow in the first photo.  When I broke it open it looked like there might have been tiny seeds starting?

Oh ok Kristen, I'm originally from SC, that's why I ask.  I've seen that before too.  Every pod that falls off seems to have those.  My guess is they're the unfertilized ovum.  If they had been fertilized the pod would have continued to swell on the plant and they would have turned into seeds.

I did a little homework on mites. Yuck!

First off I need to make a correction to my previous post: the 'red' mites I was talking about are actually called velvet mites. Velvet mites, along with many other types of mites pray on -- tada!!! -- spider mites. These predatory mites also love thrips (yay!) and insect eggs. Some predatory mites supplement their diet with pollen. The problem with predatory mites controlling spider mite infestations is that the PMs usually require higher humidity. They are also susceptible to insecticedes.

Which leads me to another discovery: spider mites start out as 6-legged larvae. I'm wondering if maybe insecticides work on them at this stage?

The dark mites that I saw on my Belle are probably Carmine spider mites, although they could have also been the predatory mites (they are usually more active and move a lot faster, which mine definitely did).

Of course I'm now wondering if I should just leave things alone, if in fact the dark dots were the good guys?

Dark Horse,  what type of riding do you do?  Im a jumper.

Your plants look really healthy, Kristen!  Keep spraying just to be on the safe side. I hope your wedding goes really well!  You'll have to post a few wedding pics here after you honeymoon. I'll pray to the weather gods for cool weather!  (as if they would listen to me...... )

Cindy

Uli, that is always the key question in the garden. I rarely spray our hibiscus in the garden because nature does a good job of keeping a balance going out there. But, our house and garden are surrounded by wild fields that provide plenty of habitat for predatory (aka beneficial) insects and mites. If your hibiscus are in a more sterile situation, such as a patio with few other plants around, then it can be harder to maintain that natural balance. It's tempting to not spray and see what happens but what can result is a major outbreak of mites that defoliates most of the hibiscus. That is not appealing, obviously.  

Using a 10-20x power magnifier to look for mites on the bottoms of the leaves is the safer course. If you find a few on several hibiscus it is best to go ahead and spray. 2 spotted spider mites are the most common mite pest on hibiscus and they are easy to identify because they actually have 2 big spots. There are other mite pests that can be harder to ID visually but start looking for the 2 spotted type and go from there. Experience is a great teacher, isn't it?

Charlie

Kristen,  I've done next to everything but I've found my niche as an event rider w/ emphasis in classical dressage and jumpers.  Fancy meeting another rider here on a hibiscus forum!  I'm sure you know, but your area has a HUGE h/j circuit that is frequented by some of the best in the sport.  Do you have your own horse?  :)




Charlie, what about spiders as predatory creatures?  I have a huge spider population in and around my house (wonderful when they decide to come inside... my DH squeals like a 10 year old girl then I have to come and kill the spider lol).  A lot of them have taken up residence in my hibs.  I've seen them catch whiteflies in their webs which is a big reason I've let them stay.  Do spiders feed on any other types of hibiscus pests?

Hmm, horses and hibiscus  - there should be a way to combine the 2 with a happy result....

Jordan, you ask an interesting question. I've always assumed spiders help a lot with pests but never really heard a definitive answer. Below is what By Dr. Linda S. Rayor, Assistant Professor of Entomology, Cornell University, has to say about this question.

Spiders are beneficial inhabitants of any garden, ecosystem, or home because of their important contributions to biological control of pest insects. Spiders are considered to be the most important terrestrial predators, eating tons of pest insects or other small arthropods every year.  Spiders are generalist predators that are willing to eat almost any insect they can catch.  They are abundant and found in most habitats.  They only need to be left alone!


The Role of the Spider in Biocontrol

There are many advantages to allowing spiders to biologically control insects in your garden or farm plot.  They are voracious predators found in most habitats, eat almost anything, and they are abundant.  They can rapidly colonize a suitable habitat and they will eat enormous numbers of insects.  Since many spiders overwinter as adults, they can reduce prey numbers early in the season before other biocontrol agents are active. 

On the down side, there are also disadvantages to using spiders as the sole method of biocontrol. Because spiders are generalist predators, they do not limit their diet to pest species but will happily consume non-pest insects (such as honey bees, butterflies), other spiders and other beneficial predators (eg. preying mantises, some beetles).  Many spiders are sit-and-wait predators so insect pests must come to them.  Spiders have long generation times, so they cannot increase rapidly in response to an outbreak of insects.   

The bottom line is that spiders are important and beneficial predators in gardens, but they are rarely successful in controlling a large outbreak of a single pest insect.

So says Dr. Rayor, and it sounds right to me.

Charlie

Cindy,

 Thanks for the words to the gods for me.  And thanks for remembering.  Good memory!  My Cindy's Heart has a million buds on it right now.  I keep spraying them though.  I will do again Sunday (making it 4 times now), how many more should I do?  Saffron has a ton of buds on it, and Belle actually had a few starting!

  Jordan, I have had Riley going on 16 years this November.  He is a TB warmblood.  Chestnut.  One of the best athlete's I've ever seen.  He is now 23 and just developed Nevicular Syndrome.  Shoeing is helping a lot though.  Quite a handful he is!  Love him.  I just hack him now, but I get to ride just about anyone in the barn.  I am schooling an off the track TB crazy man a couple days a week.  That keeps me in shape.  And I pinch hit for everyone else.  So sometimes I ride 3 horses a day, sometimes just mine.  Im very lucky to have found Riley though. Just last year I took up Polo...  Totally the most fun I have ever had on a horse.  If you like eventing, this would be right up your alley.  Find a place to take a course.  A college or something.  I loved it!

I guess that seals the deal then, the spiders can stay... at least for now.

Horses + hibiscus... hmm... I think they might appreciate hibiscus, but differently than we do! 

Kristen, that's so funny, I had a TB named Riley!  I don't have a horse now.  I have plenty to catch ride at the barn too.  So I ride other peoples' and let them pay the bills.   :D

I don't deliberately kill spiders but Cindy has a horror story of tolerating them on a balcony of an apartment she lived in years ago. They multiplied until she was afraid to go out there and it looked like a haunted house! We do have one obnoxious type here that builds a big web every night across pathways and entrances to garages etc. Then the big spider hangs out right in the middle waiting for whatever comes. Too often it's been my head that almost smacks into it before I spot it. Yuck! I've been eliminating this type for several years and so far this summer I have not seen one. But, the well behaved types, in reasonably numbers, have to be good for the garden....

Charlie

We have that obnoxious type here in Houston also. They aren't around much in the summer. They seem to prefer the cooler weather of spring and fall. They are really scary.

Look at this:
(http://i30.tinypic.com/20zzati.jpg)
This web by the Guatemalan Long-jawed Spider was first found by park staff in Lake Tawakoni State Park in Willis Point,Texas. Wonder if it is the same spider. I would hate to see that in my yard.

Whoa!!! That's creepy! I've gotten over much of my dislike for spiders when I started taking macro pics of them (that'll heal you in a hurry!), but this is a bit much  :o

Doll, wow, that looks like a spider-haters worst nightmare!  They don't particularly bother me but that picture makes me squirm!  That creepy feeling you get when you walk through a spider web.............


Amongst our spider population are black widows.  I've killed 6 here so far.  One outside in the rafters and 5 in the garage.  They're nasty looking little creatures, and of course if you flip them over you see their hourglasses.  That's one species that will NOT be allowed to live in my hibiscus!  The plants have mostly been colonized by very small spiders of various types.  For some reason the bigger ones prefer a higher perch in a window, against the stucco, etc.

That is the sickest thing I have ever seen.  I wouldn't have been able to stand there long enough to take the photo!!

Well I found two spot spider mites on a few plants outside and my black cherry.  They arent as destructive as the ones Ive dealt with in Cali.  They produce lots of webs and the whole leaf turns an off yellow color, not really the spotting that I saw with those west coast species.  I honestly thought the leaves were just getting old, but when i looked under the leaf, lots of little spidermites. 

Where do you live now?  I prolly already know this, but refresh my memory.  Guess what!!  I just got Space Oddity, Gator Pride, and the new blue seedling! 

Hey Kristen,

I am currently in Denver, CO.  Im surprised it didn't show up under my name, Im about to move to Seattle, WA. 

Gratz on your new purchases.  Which new blue did you get?  I was lucky enough to get Geronimo and Snowy Sky :)

Your going to love Space oddity and Gator Pride.  Gator Pride is really sensitive to thrips so be careful!  Its a great bloomer, if you get the chance you should check out lisa's pic of her GP with 10 open blooms on it! :)

I got My blue Haven.  I think thats what its called... I was eyeballin geronimo...  why are you movin around so much?

I was surprised to see Geronimo and glad that I was able to get it.  It is an usual seed setter with dark blooms :)

Moving around for school :)  Figuring out a career is one big adventure... Right now just living through my hobbies lol   

I don't know who Lisa is.  What is her screen name and where is the photo.  I would love to see it.  I am very excited about my new purchases! 

So I have spider mites again!!  They started on Belle so I quarantined her to the back of the house.  Now that I am inspecting everyone, I found Voodoo Magic crawling with them, no yellowing yet.  As well as The Path, same sit... I sprayed everyone because this makes me nuts.  So I probably will loose my seed pods that have been swelling huh?? 

My neighbor who works at the garden center her family owns saw me spraying and stopped by.  She suggested I get a Systemic granular and bury some in the soil monthly.  Does anyone have experience with this?  Does it work?  And if so, what brand do you suggest?

Thanks everyone.
Kristen

No, Kristen, it won't work against spider mites. Only the new and expensive Kontos has shown any systemic activity against spider mites. A systemic miticide is the holy grail of pesticide research but it is very difficult to achieve due to the way mites feed.

On the positive side mites don't do much to cause any viable seedpods to fall off. They can cause complete loss of leaves which is a big stress on the plant and that may ultimately cause pods to fall but they might not fall either. No direct cause between mites and pods falling. However, there is a big relationship between heat and pod failure. No one ever hybridized in the summer in the past but I have had some success doing it in conditions that are almost entirely in shade or inside our house in summer. Most failure of seeds to set in summer is simply due to it being too hot. October through March is the traditional season for hybridizing hibiscus.

Charlie

Oh, OK, good to know.  Last time I had the mites, everything fell off, even blooms.  Is it because I used that concentrate too strong?  Woops!  This time I used the proper dose.  And I do have a swollen pod from crossing Belle on to Saffron.  I hope I don't loose it.  Have you ever crossed those?  If so, anything good??

Hey Kristen thats a nice cross.  If you look up the CV "Sweet 16" that is a belle x saffron cross. 

Ooohh!  Really Pretty!!  I wonder what else came out of that pod?  I am so excited to be able to get to that point. 

Charlie, This is the only shot I have of belle, I think I took it last week when she bloomed after recovering from her first bout of Spider Mites.  Not a great shot of the bush, but close enough.  She lost a bit of weight while recovering, but bounced back quickly and looked good for a week.  I guess they really wern't done with her yet.  I hate them!

Hey Kristen

Belle and Saffron are two great ones to use.  Here are a few new seedlings that I saw in a old newsletter.  I dont know how many of these are still in the running, but here they are. 

1) Ingenue: Cindy's Heart x Saffron

2) Mai Tai: Belle du Jour x Simple Pleasures

3) Spotted Pony: Saffron x Some like it Hot   

Chris, Ingenue did not root last year but it is even prettier in person so I am trying it again this year. Mai Tai got lost in the shuffle but I am determined to find some plants and get it back on track. Spotted Pony should be available this coming year - makes an excellent bush with lots of branches as it turns out.

Kristen, are you saying you sprayed the concentrated oil on some hibiscus that lost leaves and all? Whoops is right. Jordan (Darkhorse on forum) did that last year, too, with similar results. She tells about it in a funny way earlier in this thread or in another thread. I better stick warning labels on those bottles - must be diluted before using! Except for snow scale but then it is only used on woody stems and not leaves.

Your Belle does look good still so you are winning the mite battle. Those creatures go for many sun loving plants, including roses, but nobody has yet found a way to permanently get rid of them during summer. You can release predatory mites that feed on spider mites onto the plants but you have to do it about as often as you spray so it is not any better. A garden with lots of different plants around to serve as a reservoir for the predatory insects that control mites is the best bet but not always easy to achieve.

Charlie

Yes, I don't recommend spraying the concentrated oil on your plants... lol... to say the very least.  That's wasn't the brightest thing I've ever done in my life, anyway.  You can tell the oil is too concentrated if the leaves start to turn black.


On a completely unrelated note... I'm BAAACK!!!  Got my iMac the other day and hooked it back up to the internet.  The monitor is HUGE!  :D

Congratulations on the new computer. Aren't the colors bright and pretty on the iMac!

Charlie

The colors are AMAZING!!!  I hadn't realized how out of date my old pc was.  The store even looks better with new font showing up now.  My next hurdle is photo editing without my old Corel Photopaint program.

Naw.... I did dilute the concentrate....on page 3 of this forum, I told you about my horrible math skils, and you told me they were wrong.  Well I only used 1 tbs for the 32oz spray this time.  Nothing is falling off yet.  Last time, I had no buds for the entire treatment.  It was torture!  Do you think that it was because of my over oiling or the mites?

Jordan, I know what you mean about having to learn a new photo editing program. I had always used Paintshop Pro on my PCs for this purpose but Cindy had the venerable Photoshop on the iMacs so I had to tackle that one when I switched over. Using Macs is easier overall and I bet you get the hang of it quickly.

Charlie

Kristen, oh yeah, I remember about the oil now that you mention it. Probably the overdose of oil fried the small buds or the stress it put on the plant caused the plant to generate a hormone that causes bud drop. Mites don't really do anything to buds - they are after the chlorophyl in the leaves. Let's hope the current dosage works well.

I'm not sure when we ended up recommending hort oil by itself over the other good organic treatment - Clean Leaf. Clean Lead is oil but it also has soap in it. Both materials are hard on insects but safe for the environment and the applicator. If oil alone doesn't work well enough perhaps the addition of soap will make it better.

Charlie

Could I just add a drop of soap to my already made up spray bottle?  Or is this another product altogether?  I will go out and buy it right now!  Let me know. 

 I checked Belle today and she is still CRAWLING with them Even after 3 applications!  (granted I did 3 in one week)  One branch is totally striped of leaves.  I got mad and add a touch more oil to the sprayer and sprayed the heck out of it.  I saturated everything 3X, even the wood and dirt totally!  She is in complete quarantine right now and will be for the rest of the summer.  And if they are still a problem by the time they all have to come in, then she doesn't make the cut.  Poor girl.  I feel so bad.  I wonder if I should make a couple cuttings of her just to be safe.  Start fresh...

By all means, add some liquid detergent to the oil. About a half teaspoon should do it. The oil is not working well, and I'm wondering why. Have to give it some thought.

Good idea to start some cuttings. Belle is one that roots pretty well. The very soft green wood usually rots so try to get some that has started to turn brown and harden up.

Charlie

Ok,  I added a tiny drop and sprayed everyone.  I will have to add more and spray again.  How often can I spray?

Uggh! I feel so sorry for everyone battling these spider mites. After reading all these horror stories I felt very lucky that the ones my little Belle had went away completely after just a few hose-downs.

Yes!! make cuttings asap. Nice thing is that you won't need much in terms of leaves, so the naked branch comes in handy :)

I have noticed that while Belle du Jour may be susceptible to mites, it is an incredibly resilient cv. Last winter the strong winds we sometimes get here blew my big Belle off the ledge it was standing on several times. It lost a lot of branches and to this day is a very 2-dimensional bush, but it survived. My little Belle recently survived getting crushed by an umbrella that had been blown over by the wind. It was pancaked, lost leaves and branches, the main stem was cracked...it looked terrible. All I did is prop it back up and you wouldn't know anything had ever happened, except it is smaller. I can't believe that the cracked main stem didn't result in yellowing leaves, to say the least. She may have a delicate name, but she's tough!!!

Uli, All you did was just spray them with the hose?  I have smaller plants that haven't turned yellow at all, but have mites on them.  So I sprayed with the oil, but I would rather just spray with the hose once in a while.  Where do you do it?  In the grass away from other plants?  Im worried they will find their way back if all I do is just spray them.

Funny enough, Cindy was just saying to me that we should advise water sprays as they work best. Mites are fairly easy to knock off the leaves and they also drown easily. They can walk across soil to reach another plant but are far less likely to climb back up a pot if they survive being hosed off.

In the greenhouse I will sometimes take a larger plant that is well rooted into its pot and lay it on its side so that I can hose blast the undersides of the leaves easily. I rotate it 1/4 turn and do all 4 sides so no leaves are left unblasted. That won't work so well for recently transplanted plants because of the soil coming out of the pot. For those something like the BugBlaster is actually very handy. It is angled so that the spray tip gets under the leaves and shoots upward easily on plants in the upright position.

This is summer fun, prepare to get a bit damp if doing many plants.

Nice to hear your Belles are survivors, Uli!

Charlie

Kristen, all I used was the hose with kind of like a shower head attachment. It is fairly gentle that way, which worried me...I didn't think it would be enough, but I didn't want to rip the leaves when I turned them over. I did gently rub the leaves with my fingers where I could see mites.

I'm not sure if it was the "correct" thing to do, but I simply hosed Belle off on my patio, as far away from any other plants as I could. It was mid day and in full sun, as I was hoping the sun would burn up any mites that got washed off. Then I set the pot in a shady place for the rest of the day.

Now I check my plants every day...so far, so good. I hope you get rid of yours soon!

Im a monster... I pluck each yellow leaf off, inspect it, see the crawlers, and take the grill flame to it!  Bake those lil punks!  Then like a mad woman, I spray the heck out of them again!  I will go at all of them in the yard tomorrow with the hose...  Thanks for all the support!

  So I hosed all of them.  Out of Cajun Blue, The Path, Gabriel, Voodoo Magic, & Belle du Jour that got all the mites, only Belle & The Path have any left.  So I guess that the oil actually did work Charlie. 

   How often can I hose them when the mites are present?  And once I get rid of them, how often do you suggest I hose them in prevention?

kristen..I started lightly washing mine off almost every evening ..instead of spraying so much oil...I have not had a problem...and the hibs look good...i dont know if that is correct..but they seem to be liking it..and it keeps them looking good...but I only do it at night..lynette

Sounds like a good plan.  Thanks Lynette!

So here is a little tidbit about the stupid mites.  Charlie, remember a few days ago when I told you that I didn't have any mites at the moment.  All my plants are inside, and the mite issue has been pretty manageable.  Well, the other day Matt built me a grow box for this 150W grow light that I got from a friend for free.  (Totally a super score, he wanted to get a bigger system so he just gave it to me)  The box is about  6' by 4'.  We lined it with tinfoil & put a fan in it for circulation.  I grabbed a couple small rooted cuttings along with some smaller non blooming hib's, a Elephant Tree, and a Desert Rose.....LET ME TELL YOU... The spider mites that were non existant before I put them in, are in full force right now!  I wash them down every day, and the next day, there are double!  The 150W makes it really hot in there, so I am thinking that I must have had some eggs stored away in the plants for when it gets warm enough for them, and boy o boy, here they are.  I can't get rid of them.  I bet that if I took them out of the "hot box" and back in the sunny cool window where they were, the mites would go bye bye again?!

Just in case I don't reply soon, please know that I am having internet service issues and may lose the DSL at any moment.

So far, so good with the internet. ATT says they know about and are fixing the problem. It seems ok now.

Anyway, what you say about mites showing up when the heat and light increased makes perfect sense. Not only do they like those conditions but they also reproduce much more rapidly the warmer it gets. So you definitely have a problem that needs a solution. It would help to slow down the increase by moving them back to colder conditions but it wouldn't stop the ones already there from feeding and doing a lot of damage. You need a treatment - soap and/or oil or a full immersion bath. Kontos would do the trick if you decide to go that route but something should be done asap before they little &^*^_^*& s do too much damage.

Charlie

Thanks Charlie, I took them out, all of them.  Washed them off while I await for the Kontos to arrive in the mail.  They are nasty!  So another question.  If I have them in the cooler air, between 60º and 75º, how long can they stay in egg form?  Can they hang out for the durration of the winter?  But I think I will be fine once I get the Kontos.

Kristen, how they overwinter depends on what type of mite. The most common hibiscus mite is the 2 spotted spider mite, easily id's by looking for the prominent spot on each side of the body. Two spotted mites overwinter as mated females that hide under rough bark and in other protected hiding places, including debris around the base of the plants. Most other mite species lay eggs in similar protected places and those eggs overwinter waiting for warmer conditions.

You probably have two-spotted spider mites, and their eggs won't last longer than a month, and can hatch in a week when its warmer. But when green leaves are present and temps are above 60F 2 spotted mites will continue to feed all winter. Kontos might get them all if they continue to feed, and if it's used as we discussed.

Charlie

Thank you, I will keep you posted!

Update on systemic Kontos for mites.

IT WORKS, NOT A BUG IN SITE.

my plants have never looked so good. I have reached hibiscus Nirvana.

i have been using it for 3 weeks and am very pleased.

Louis

Glad to hear it, Lou.

At $150-$200 per bottle it is expensive but for most people one bottle will last for years. Since it is best used as a drench rather than a spray it is also easy to apply and there is a much reduced risk of getting pesticide on you. Even soaps and oils are not good for your lungs if you spray them without a respirator.

If anyone decides to order it (available online in most states) please let me know so I can relate the way to use it that has proven to work for me, Lou, and several others. It's a new product that may be harder to get outside the US or have a different name. The active ingredient is spirotetramat - try that name if Kontos is not available. As always when using a pesticide, follow label precautions and keep away from children, pets and so forth.

Charlie

I did my first application yesterday.  Here's to hoping.  Although I do not have much of a problem right now because it is butt cold already here, but I want to wipe out any possible stragglers.  I will keep you in the loop.

BTW, I got it off eBay from a woman named Hope from Sunshine Gardens in FL.  Very nice woman to speak to.  And it was the cheapest around.  Shipped quickly, got it within a week.  $174.99

Congratulations! You are well on the way to mite and insect free hibiscus.

One thing I forgot to talk about in the directions is that this pesticide must be absorbed into the plant through the roots for it to work. During hot summer that happens quickly but in winter it can take a much longer time. If you water too soon after applying it the water can leach the Kontos out of the pot before it gets taken up and then it won't work. If you have saucers and the run-off water is taken back into the pot there is no concern because it will eventually get into the plant but if run-off is disposed of or runs off onto deck, etc you could remove the Kontos before it ever gets into the plant. So, give it time before watering again or use saucers so the run-off is used eventually.

Charlie

AMEN

(http://www.imagesct.com/web/no-bugs.jpg)

Does Kontos work on thrips or is it still best to use Spinosad? I have never had a spider mite problem on my hibiscus. Houston's humidity has its advantages.

Doll, the label claims to "suppress" thrips which is not the same as "controlling" thrips. So far I haven't seen that it does much to western flower thrips, the type we are most concerned with, which makes sense because that thrip feeds on the pollen of the open flowers and lays its eggs in the flower buds. It doesn't suck juice or eat the leaves so it does not take in the Kontos.

As of now, I am still recommending spinosad for thrips but if those of us using Kontos end up with no thrips problems we'll amend that.

Charlie

Great sign, Lou!!!

Hibiscus Bug Free Zone is what every hibiscus grower would love to have.

Charlie

So I bought this product called Doktor Doom Spider mite knock out.

Before I bought this I did some research on some reefer forums  :D  Everyone said it works and is the best. I got to cans of it so now I will try it and see how it does. I will report back with result later.

Good luck Kerry!  Hope it works. My higher dose of Kontos is doing pretty good.  We shall see in the summer time though!

Plain ol soap and water has worked for me with spider mites.    I had a horrible infestation on a Cat Palm I'd gotten from Wal-Mart (Thanks Wal-Mart!=p) I don't know if any of you have had palms, but Palms+Spider Mites=Nightmare lol. And this was a large palm!

Anyways the trick was to keep doing it every few days for about a month.(You could probably do it less long but I wanted to be very thorough and not take chances)  And get everything! Not miss an inch.  And always vacuum the floor around it. It has been over a year since, and not one spider mite has returned ;)

Then  an arrowhead vine/goosefoot I had boughten in from Lowes had them.  They showed up a week later so I must guess they were dormant in eggs. Anyways same treatment(for a week)  Not one since.   I could even see the dead mites too from after the soap.  The others I had picked off.  On that plant I made the soap concentration a bit higher. and it didn't hurt the leaves. Used Liquid Ivory.

G luck.  Dang mites!

I agree just spraying with hot soapy water,has kept my plants clean, happy and mite free!  I do it every two weeks as prevention, it also helps keep the plants clean and maximizes photosynthesis.

I like the organic approach a lot. 

Any issues with the soap getting on the soil and then soaked up by the plant?
Just wondering if that would do any harm.

Farmer D

Hi Darren,

I use a biodegradable detergent, I also add a little to my fert water too, it slows down the gnats (thanks Cindy:)  So no worries there, the key is to keep it up, an ounce of prevention equals no spidermites :) 

If I want to mix up a solution with liquid Ivory, what rate do you mix?

Hi Charlie I would be very interested in learning your method of properly using Kontos to battle 2 spotted spider mites. They are tearing my plants up! Thank you in advance.

I have a question.  Charlie, if you use Kontos, and it makes the adults not able to procreate... and it is summer, what about the constant flow of new adults that come?  What about them, cause they can still do damage, just not make babies... 

I was wondering if anyone who is trying the Wilt Proof method are still having luck.  I would like to give it a go tomorrow outside.

Angrysun, I sent you an email response about Kontos.

Kristin, you bring up a good question. I am also still interested in hearing any reports about using WiltPruf. It would be a lot cheaper than Kontos but with the added drawback of having to move the plants outside to spray. I will probably continue to use Kontos on our indoor hibiscus because there are so many that taking them out is a job that won't get done often. But for people with outdoor hibiscus or not wanting to use pesticides it would be super if the WiltPruf worked in all types of conditions.

As for spider mites invading your hibiscus you might not have much of a problem with that since it's hard to imagine they survive the type of freezing winter you have. Your biggest worry is bringing them home on new plants you acquire. I'm shipping the cleanest hibiscus I have ever shipped this year, and can say with almost certainty you will not be getting any hitchhikers on the plants from us. Most growers use the idea of "avoiding commercially damaging levels" of insect pests rather than "zero tolerance" so you have to be careful with what you bring home. It should be an interesting summer and possibly even a mite free summer - we shall see how people do with the new approaches in the new growing season.

Charlie

My problem is all the pesticdes I bought require taking plants outsize :( I have avid and the dr doom knock out spray but after reading the directions I am so scared to even spray them.....

I googled natural ways to get rid of spider-mites again. I remember you ( Charlie) saying do not spray Alcohol because it is dangerous to breath in. I think I will try diluting it with the water but whipping the leaves with a cotton ball. I will do a test patch first before I do all the plants. This may sound like it would be harder than spraying plants with hot water in shower, but its not. The thing is I have to drag back and fourth over 50 plants to my tub every 2 days its a PITA on my back. So at least if I try the alcohol on leaves I can sit there and do each plant one buy one with out straining my back.

On the WiltPruf side of things I will be using it as soon as my plants have mostly mature leaves to spray.  Right now the leaves are all starting to come in but it might be a few months before they are ready to spray.  Since mine are all outside and I did have two plants that were completely defoliated by mites (Valentines Day & Bonnie Lass) last year I hope I can provide some good information this summer on WP effectiveness.

Kerry if you try the alcohol be sure to keep the windows open and have a fan blowing the fumes away from you. Kontos is a lot easier to deal with than any of the other remedies for people with a lot of potted plants. No spraying involved but it does cost about $200 to get started.

Charlie

Charlie,  I will be moving my plants outside in hopefully two weeks.  They have been spending there days outside for a couple hours of sun.  We have been getting nice sunny days in the 70's.  So they are going outside.

I guess I have to wait for the spring growth to come in first.  I forgot about that.  I will just keep up with the Kontos for now.  I have had it at a higher dose since they are not drinking up as quickly as they normally wood.  I blame it on the heat in the house not needing to be on because it is mild outside. 

Looks Like I am "winning" LOL

I been showering my plants once a week with the hottest water that comes out of my faucet ! I must say Hibiscus are pretty tough. The water burns me but the hibiscus seem fine :)  I may actually use the Dr Doom spray now since I got them under control.

Well the spider mite population has exploded on my hibiscus in the greenhouse again this summer inspite of frequent washings and rotating sprayings with Safer's soap and Endall, hort oil, and neem oil.  It's too hot to use any of the oil sprays now with afternoon temps right around 100.  It's also incredibly dry and windy.  

 I'm finally throwing in the towel and ordering the Kontos.  I can't afford it but moving about 70 plants in and out of the greenhouse to do the various treatments is becoming too much of a chore.   

Charlie could you email those guidelines on using the Kontos?  I'll be treating the whole collection soon, hopefully.

thanks,
dave

Best thing to do Dave and within a couple of months Mites are a thing of the past.

I sure hope so. These nasty things are taking all the joy out of this hobby. It weird, I never had any spider mites on any of my garden variety hibiscus for all the years I grew them and also none the first 3 years with the exotics. The only problem back then was aphids, no thrips, no whiteflies, and no mites. GRRRRRRRRR


dave

I dread the thought that Spider mites may ever become immune to the Kontos, not sure if I could face all that stuff we had to do before, now its just 2 or 3 odd leaves a month and thats only on one cv.
When you first use it Dave make sure you dont forget your garden Hibs, mine actually seemed to get worse for the first month, it all settles down in the end though and I now use it on every plant in my garden.

  Has anyone tried Garlic Plants to "run off" spider mites?  I was reading on an organic site that Garlic can be used as a companion plant to repel aphids and spider mites. 
I just spent 3 hrs washing leaves off 150 plants and the bayer 3 in 1 seems to have no effect on them this year.  I looked at Neem extract but the label said not to apply to known sensitive plants and had Hibiscus flowers listed. Does this mean just the flowers or the plant?  Would it be better to dilute it more than the label states? 

I was looking for the instructions on the net for how much to use as I had lost the label and also read that about Neem oil, I still used it mind and had no problem,  I am fairly certain it means sensitive to the open bloom.

The warning about neem oil means spraying it on open flowers could stain the flowers but since hibiscus flowers only last a day or two that is not really a drawback in most situations.

Charlie

Thanks for the Neem info.  I will give it a try then.

Okay the Neem oil has not gotten rid of them.  How effective is the dish soap method?  How much soap do i use if I am going to use a 1 gal garden sprayer?  Which soap is safe/best?

  So far I have been using the Bayer 3 in 1 and Neem oil in rotation.  They return very quickly, but I think this is due to the drought conditions in my area.  We did get some good rain in the past few days so hopefully it will give the buggers something else to suck on instead of my Hibiscus.

Some people do spray with regular household detergent and vegetable oils. The detergents can have many additives so I can't really recommend them for safety for use on hibiscus. Soaps and oils that are sold for horticultural use are far safer and in fact the Safer Company offers a good soap product. Hort oils like we offer at HVH are highly refined, light weight oils that evaporate from the plants after application, leaving no stains behind.

Another natural product we have used and recommend for difficult to control insects like mealy bugs is Limonene, made from orange peels. This stuff is highly effective and although I have never used it for spider mites it would not surprise me if it worked well. Check the online store for details about Limonene.

By the way, has anyone been using the Wilt-Pruf product for mites that was recommended by one of the contributors here last year? That would be another safe way to treat for mites if it works in a wide range of conditions.

Charlie

I bought it but have been too afraid to use it for some reason.  Something about spraying in the sunlight that scares me.  I'm thinking I will use it before I bring them inside for the winter.  But I have been having much success with the Kontos, I don't need anything else.  Best $175 Ive spent yet on bug repelant.

I had been wondering for the last two months why my monster Chariots of Fire plant looks like it is shrinking and thinning out.  I am pretty sure now it is spider mites.  With the weather finally heating up and I recently did two sprayings for thrips with Greenlight w/ Spinosad (which claims to control spider mites) I noticed COF perk up finally and start blooming again.

I never saw any webbing or mites but the increasing rate of yellowing leaves along with the overall look of the plant surely was a sign.  These little buggers really drain the life out of anything especially when talking about such a robust bush like this one.

I sprayed every leaf and branch of all 70+ hibs and especially the ground in my planters very thoroughly (man that is a lot of time and work).  Now after two sprayings I want to do another with a different product to get the newly hatched adults - thinking of Brayer Advanced 3 -1 even though it was mentioned above that it wasn't effective.  Greenlight gave me good results and I have the thrips to thank for spraying in the first place (they loved my Plumeria).

I still have the Wilt Pruf ready to go but since the spinosad seemed to work effectively I'll stick to this regimen for now.  Check out the pic to see the damage from them on COF - entire bottom half of plant defoliated - but new leaves are starting to show.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m613/darreneminian/InteriorYardNorthPlanterBigBoys8-22.jpg)

Farmer D

D,  I commented on this in the September blooms page, but I also wanted to tell you that a good product for you would be the bug blaster that HVH sells.  http://www.hiddenvalleynaturearts.com/acatalog/bugblaster.htm
This will save you so much time and back ache.  I got it this spring before I moved all mine outside for the summer.  I have been using Kontos VERY successfully.  But wasn't sure if it would be able to stand up the the summer heat.  Knowing what a backache it was last year to drag all my pots into the yard and spray and rub each leaf.  It works nicely and may help you out a ton, especially if Kontos is not a good product for you to use seeing that all your plants are in the ground.

As it is right now, Kontos is the only mite/bug control I have used all summer.  And I have been absolutely bug free.  NOT ONE!  amazing!

I cant see why Kontos would not work for plants in the ground, they still drink the water you give them and its not like you have to give them much, mine work out at about 1 pint per plant per week and like Kristen have been Mite free for over a year, it is expensive and even more for me with the shipping but I still say its the best 200 dollars I have ever spent.

Another natural product we have used and recommend for difficult to control insects like mealy bugs is Limonene, made from orange peels. This stuff is highly effective and although I have never used it for spider mites it would not surprise me if it worked well. Check the online store for details about Limonene.


Charlie
[/quote]
Charlie I am going to give the Limonene a try for my Mealy Bugs, Mealys are and always have been my biggest problem here, Kontos Safari and Bayer will control them fine on the plant, by plant I mean the stems and the underside of the leaves ect but it wont stop them when they penetrate the actual bud, I am losing a lot of buds, either by the Mealys or by me trying to wash them off, its a right pain. So do you think a regular spray of the buds with this Limonene will be ok and a help.

One more thing to add about Kontos, I bought a bottle in the fall probably sept/oct ish... I have about 75 potted plants I water with it weekly.  And I am still on the same bottle.  So if you do the math, the $180 you spend for it is worth a year.

Thank you Kristen, David and Jordan - I just purchased some Kontos after reading all of your posts and realizing that it is a systemic.  This whole time I thought it was only a spray which I am very wary of using myself. 

Today it is 98 so far and I'm sure the spider mites are loving it so this is a needed step to take to bring things under my control.  I think a systemic should work well with my in ground plants.  I have had good results with Safari Tree & Shrub for aphids so I don't see why this shouldn't work too.

Kristen I agree about it being worth a million bucks after remembering what you went through last year with spider mites.  I can handle all the other pests but the spider mites are something else.

Thank you all again - Farmer D

Oh-oh...Does this look like a spider mite to anyone else as well?

Came off of my Some Like It Hot this morning. The leaf has some fine webbing too - if this is a spider mite wow pretty early on to see them all ready....

Also does anyone have a take or experience on using predatory mites to eliminate them effectively?

Farmer D

Here is a pic of the leaf it is on.  I saw two crawling around and another something very small but wasn't quite the same. 

Farmer D

Lots of water spraying will knock the spider mites quickly, Darren, and then Kontos will keep them away. If you use both together you seem to get the quickest and best results. This winter has been so warm here in S. Calif. that it hasn't really killed the bugs in the normal way!

Cindy

Well I was hoping to never have to add a post to this thread but here I am.  If you're going to get spider mites this is definitely the time of year they start to show up in numbers.  My Cherry Glow which I got recently as a 2 gallon was one of the first to show those splotchy yellow leaves as well as Illuminati & Bright Hope also 2 gallon purchases shipped here in July.  CG is on the south corner of my porch so it gets the most heat and sun hence she is under attack big time.

Even spotted some on my Tahitian Charley (another really hot & sunny spot) and worst of all my growth chamber in my garage has them too which explains why a few of the plants in there have all yellow leaves for no reason.

Fed Kontos to the porch plants yesterday and today I'll feed these others and spray very carefully with the sprayer just to wash them off.

I hope these pictures help anyone not familiar with what to look for and what they look like.

Remember when it gets really hot spider mites have a 3 day reproduction cycle and their population can explode in a few weeks and spread to all your plants.

Farmer D

Upon further inspection I found quite a bit more spider mites and ended up Kontos drenching about 1/2 of my inner front yard.  The plants in the sunniest and hottest spots had them which is what would be expected.  Plus my plants have all been very much starved for food until recently so I figure that has also played into this outbreak. 

If I remember correctly last year I had no such outbreaks.

Farmer D

Darren, Kontos works very slowly and not at all on adult mites. You should also use a Bug Blaster or hose on the underside of all leaves every day or 2 until the Kontos helps achieve control by slowing reproduction. Horticultural oil sprays will also smother mites and is far better than water alone. For those willing to use a respirator during application, a miticide like Avid can be used for quick and thorough control.

Charlie

Charlie I really appreciate the additional information as it has been 2 years since I've had to deal with a spider mite outbreak and I am kind of relearning what to do here.  

I got some horticultural oil today so I sprayed all the undersides of leaves on my potted porch plants as well as the wood chips on top of the soil to hopefully smother them.  I will do so again in several days and hopefully between the two this will snuff them out.

I also took off all affected leaves and immediately threw them out - I placed our "green" trash can on the street already to have it furthest away from any plants on my property.

So I am thinking about the factors that might have led to this outbreak.  Just ideas to think about, nothing for sure...

1. I was not feeding my plants much this season so they were probably weaker than normal and more prone to attack.

2. The sudden onslaught of aggressive fert feeding might have provided plenty of nutrients for the spider mites already here to go into overdrive and reproduce faster.

3. I sprayed twice within the last few weeks with spinosad so maybe that killed off their natural predators.

4. This is the time of year they appear in numbers and we had some more dry heat lately which I know they like the dry and hot conditions.  Not hot at all though as it has been a very mild summer so far here in So Cal.

5. I have been aggressively killing spiders as their webs are messing with the leaves of the hibs.

6. I also have noticed a lot of aphids at the same time too which is interesting.

Farmer D

Just a few points Darren which might help.

1) Spinosad won't kill most beneficials. (I believe it can be an issue with bees when wet, but no issue once dry. Hence why it is better to spray in evenings.)

2) Plants that are well fed, particularly with N are magnets for pest. Not due to more "nutrients" but due to the fact rapid growth creates weak, elongated cell walls that pest find easier to attack.

That is very helpful Len.  I'm wondering if it were more prudent to feed my infected plants with just straight Kontos instead of doing it with ferts?  I definitely agree and see how much the additional N gets the pests going big time.  Maybe trying to kill two birds with one stone is not such a good idea in this situation.

Speaking of pests I see a lot of these guys too, not sure if these are alive or just remains...I don't believe these are white flies unless this is what they look like dead?

Farmer D