Hidden Valley Hibiscus Forum

Good Morning, I seemingly have a disease which probably reverts all the way back to summer 2010. I won't bore you with all the details but I would like to describe what I am seeing now in my Grow room. 1.  Creole Lady is showing a lot of discoloration. It is also showing a black mildew/fungus on the tops of the foliage which really makes the dark and light green spots show brightly against bright yellow. I also see black spots on many leaves which are helping to cause disfiguring of the leaf. 2.   Pina Colada-many leaves, if not all (even the great looking dark green glossy leaves that covers the plant, have black spots on the underside of the leaves. most every leaf on the plant will have, at least, a few black specs ( seen only under magnification) as well as a blister or two but; just in the last week I have noticed with naked eyes, a few leaves (seemingly they have always been the newest leaf at the tip of the branch that has opened completely up) which have developed hundreds of blisters, some with spots either inside the blister or on top, hard to tell even under 30X magnifier and others are just clear. If you wonder if they can be wiped of, the answer would be no. One other issue I see with Pina is the tips and edges of random leaves having brown tips and sometimes edges. If I left these on the plant long enough the brown tip would encroach on the rest of the leaf, I think.  Otherwise, those leaves are a beautiful dark green. Even the leaves with the clear blisters with spots in them and the leaves with the black specs on the underside are great looking leaves unless until whatever this is takes its toll on the leave and it begins to yellow.

The above issues will eventually cause yellowing but beyond that, I'm not certain because I take the leaf as soon as I notice any problem in an effort to protect, as much as possible, the area around the diseased leaf/leaves. I have several other Cultivars, all which I purchased from Charles and Cindy, housed in the same grow room. Some I have had For almost 3 years and some arrived this year about the same time I noticed my summer problems (note...no reason whatsoever to believe the disease arrived with my new plants) in the same grow room along with clones.  The roots of all plants appear to be very healthy (solid white and full). Every other cultivar in the room also shows some sign of disease whether it be a few black spots, a few blisters underside the leaves or in the case of Hot Pepper, yellowing leaves that with turn to a rotting look if left on the plant.

Some of the other cultivars: Belle du jour, Eye of Kali, Palm Springs, Hot Pepper (which I mentioned), Island Queen (IQ and Belle are the healthiest of the group at this time).

I have certainly bored you nice people with a relatively shortened version (it looks mike a book I know but please believe me when I say; I have been battling something since June 2010 without pause) of what could truly be a book if I had an ending and therein lies the problem. I've sent photos to people everywhere and with no luck on a diagnosis. I have even gone to two separate County ext agents an University of KY but to no avail. Had it been a stalk of tobacco or a handful of soybeans, I'm pretty sure UK could have helped.

I know there are no pix attached (mainly because I don't know how to attach them) but can someone please try to elaborate on maybe something I've written or possibly ask ,e something that could spark some additional ideas? I am wanting so badly to place my order for new plants but until I can determine my current problem, I can't fix it. I've guessed and sprayed all I'm going to at this point. I'm spending hundreds of ADDITIONAL dollars trying to fight back something that I haven't a clue what it is. What a waiste. I have clones many of the plants and they root just fine. I'm not sure if that tells me anything at all or not but I'm hoping I don't have to dig a big hole and bury them. I suppose, in my mind at least, if the cutting from the plants are strong enough to root, maybe it's not some incurable viral incurable killer?..

Please help...I am willing to pay someone to diagnose and help me to fix my problem, I just can't find that person. I've read many post on this board hoping to find a lead of some kind so I know there are some very knowledgable people posting, following and helping issue such as this and good people such as I strive to be someday...ha

Thanks in advance to whoever takes enough time out of their busy day to read such a post!
Sincerely,
Bart H.

If I need to add pix I probably could figure it out but it's unlikely you can see a lot of what I see when magnifying?

Bart's hibiscus seem to have some sort of fungus or bacterial spotting on the leaves. Since this is not typical for hibiscus I have very limited experience with it. The only black spotting I see occurs during winter with plants left outside. In spring they drop those leaves and new ones grow in. No action is needed with pruning being a way to speed up the process when appropriate.

Perhaps someone who grows roses will have a suggestion or two since roses have a lot more leaf diseases than hibiscus. I suspect Bart's problems are related to his unique growing situation, which he has described in detail in private emails. Could also be something related to the water and/or soil in his part of Kentucky.

Most people who grow hibiscus do not worry much about the occasional black leaf spots since they rarely threaten the health or life of hibiscus bushes. One bacterial disease called Xanthamonas attacked one grower's hibiscus leaves in Florida that were wet all the time from sprinklers. That was hard to get rid of and caused defoliation of the plants that got it. It's the only case of a damaging leaf problem with hibiscus I've heard of except for Barts.

Control of most persistent problems usually comes from using the right sprays and making adjustments to the growing environment. Anyway, anybody with suggestions please jump in.

Charlie

Ah Ive seen this on some my plants since moving to the cool and humid PNW.  If one thinks about what fungi love - moist, stagnant conditions and food.  Being heterotrophs they break down plant material and are essentially eating your plant leaves, like a spidermite would.  Ive solved my problem by adding lots of additional air-movement, to the growing area which prevents moisture building up under leaves, which promotes the fungal growth.  I would add a few fans to blow around the air in your growing space and if it is enclosed addition of ventilation "windows" would also help alot!  

Good Luck Bart!

As Chris mentioned a fan seems to make a big difference.  I have just a ceiling fan in my "grow bedroom" right now and it not only keeps the fungus at bay, it seems to deter spider mites as well.  Have you tried fungal sprays, Bart?  Something like "Insect, Disease, and Mite Control" might work.  My Night Runner was sent to me last year with black spots on the leaves--  a few sprays with Bayer and the problem was resolved.  I wouldn't throw out your plants yet.  From what I gather leaf diseases are USUALLY not as big of a deal as some other problems.  

Bart don't worry !

I have some experience with hybrid roses. I have had so much issues ( not like yours) with my seedlings and older hibiscus. I suggest you buying charlies wake up spray In concentrate bottle ( so you will have more). Next like chris and Jordan said yet a fan or get the hibiscus in a non humid location. I would get a rose fungicide asap as you wait for the wake up spray. Only use the fungicide in the morning because if you use it at night the moisture from it will not help you get rid of the fungus it will just come back. When I had my roses I would take ALL leaves that had the fungus on them because really you can't save these leaves. If part of the leaves have fungus cut the infected parts off if possible. Now the wake up spray will come handy spray this Wake up spray daily until you see new leaf buds. I have brought seedlings and grown hibiscus back to life with this stuff after having NO leaves on some of my plants. Like Charlie stated I have seen black spots on my hibiscus because of the winter ( A few at my aunts house have some black spots but its normal)

Here is a good link with some more info

http://www.rosemagazine.com/articles02/pages/blackspot.asp
http://www.rose-bushes.com/Tips/Disease.html

Guys, thanks so much for taking some time to post to my desperate plea. As for spraying fungicides, I've sprayed many different ones. I wish I could tell you the active ingredients in them but I'm traveling and I would have to look them up in order to even attempt to spell the names. I have spray stuff such as Rose Pride, Copper, streptomycin, Fung-in-oil, etc... About anything one can find at a Lowes or Home Depot, I've tried but to no avail. Strange enough, I was frustrated one night and mixed up some Physan 20 at 2 tsp/gal and sprayed Palm Springs. What I found was a very healthy looking plant after a few days. That was a shot in the dark as you can imagine.  All my plants with the have plenty of foliage with the exception of Palm Springs, Creole Lady and Eye of Kali is a bit light. Believe it or not, I found some gibberellic (sp) acid at a store last year, purchased it and made some Wake-up spray after mixing down to a 1% G. Acid in water. It works quite well however; they said it was all they had and wouldn't be able yo purchase any more of it. I had rather purchase Charlies anyway as I have complete trust that if he say I need it and he send it, I have no worries about what in getting...always quality.
I have lots of ventilation and air flow in the grow room. I currently have 4 larger fans, one in each corner, 3 are oscillating, and small fans moving air in and around my small cutting area. As for a window, I could certainly cut one in however; it would do no good as my travel trailer is sitting beside the garage area in which I built my growroom. It would not allow any sun.
What I am in the process of doing is adding an additional 1000watt HID lamp. I currently only run One along with fluorescent over my small clones. The room is only a 10' X 12' X 9' high with a 30" deep X 120" long X 60" high area for cutting and clones.

I am truly at a lose as I am seeing a so many different symptoms, depending on the cultivar. I would like to think it all stem from one common denominator but I am not intelligent enough to determine what that would be. If I look at even the beautiful shiny deep green foliage on any one plant with magnification, I will see a few raised bumps, whether they are raised black spots, raised clear looking blister looking spots or both. Those leaves will eventually grow enough of these that it will either turn brown, yellow or become oily looking and wither like a rag.

I will make every attempt to post some of the latest pix showing different variations of the fungus or whatever it is. Thank you guys so much for trying to help me. I always like to think I can beat most things by trial and error but... This has kicked me long enough and if I can't kill whatever it is before spring, the KY heat and humidity will vet the best of my plants and I'll have no beautiful blooms to enjoy. I have e en considered burying all of them, sanitizing everything I can, and starting all over. That would be difficult to do. Ive already done that very thing with the 4 plants of which I believe started the entire problem.

Can I post several pictures in one post or do I need to post only one pic at a time. I would like to first display each adult plant as it is today and then some individual pix of foliage that I have recently taken from each plant?  I know I must resize each to 400K.

I think its now set to 5 photos attached to any one post but of course a second post can be made and 5 more added to it. Each photo must be less than 300 kb which is plenty, even for a large photo.

Charlie

I hope this helps.  My plants have sustained a lot of winter damage from Dec and it is now really showing up.

Bart - see if any of the pics below looks like what you've got.

If not I have more pics of leaves that have all sorts of things going on.  It is reassuring to know once spring rolls around and weather is better that the plants will shed these and new leaf growth will occur.

Farmer D

darren...a couple of my plants are looking like that too :-\..Lynette

Lynette and Darren, this is very typical outdoor winter damage for southern CA hibiscus. If all goes well these leaves drop off or can be removed and nice new leaves grow back in the following summer.

Bart has some type of atypical leaf problem going on, not really the same as this. It's way too cold in Kentucky to overwinter hibiscus outside so his plants are moved to a room he built in his garage. There is no natural sunlight but he has some intense HID lights and keeps the room very warm. The plants grow very well in there as we saw last summer when he showed a photo of an Island Queen that was taller than he was! The plants are also fed constantly throughout the year. What this means is that the plants go from hot indoor climate to hot outdoor climate with no break for a cold spell. More like a tropical country and possibly more tropical type leaf disease. Not really sure what it is but seems to be unique to that type of growing situation. Might be an easy fix if he can figure out just what to do.

Charlie

Darrin, Thank you for posting those pix. I have had some that have a similar look but more as if someone had injected used oil inside the leaf and at random spots. I am not seeing so much of that now but when the heat and humidity of summer comes, I am afraid it will come back with vengeance. I still get several buds but few blooms and the plants defoliate from the first leaf at the bottom of a limb (truly any limb as in random) and works its way towards the tips.  The plants are looking good right now with the exception of some nasty raised spots which look like blisters with black spots but I found last night that I can wash them off with alcohol but they really look nasty.  it's almost as if a leaf has broken out with an allergy and has a terrible rash. the only leaf this appears on is the very last leave (tip) of the limb. the bottom leaf is the one that is coming off next...always.

They all will have some kind of black specks on the back and even when looking at a leaf that you would think to be perfectly healthy, with a closer look, it will have lack specks but they just have not damaged the leaves enough to cause yellowing, dulling or some kind of sick look that will warrant me to pull them from the plant.

Additional information that I just found out...I found that I have Scale. I didn't even know what they were until I was told and then read Charlie's article about the nasty things. I have always wanted to find an insect on the plants in hope that they are the cause of my problems. well; I found one alright. I don't think it is causing my current problems but I am afraid they are going to bring on more issues of their own.  I just found out so I was out last night looking for white spots on leaves. I have noticed these spots for a while but just thought it was another symptom of the ongoing problems as there have been many symptoms, of which I have yet to find a common denominator; but i will. I still have not seen a scale, just the white spots that I assume they live in. can't see the young crawlers that Charlie mentions in his article. All I can say is. now that i know, there sure are a lot of spots and especially on the young plants.  I am going to Louisville tomorrow and if I cant find Safari, I will order some from Charlie...I have to get some other stuff anyway.

That's all I have until I figure out the picture thing. I believe my issue has been the fact that I don't know how to upload from my iPhone and I thought for sure I would be able to. I will email the pix to myself and them post from the computer.  Thanks for everyone's input.  It would almost be impossible for me to describe this well enough for someone to come up with a diagnosis and cure based on my writings.  I WILL have pix soon but even then, I am not sure anyone has seen the issue. UK has had two shots at it but to no avail. If it were Corn or tobacco, I'd be in good hands...Ha

Bart

One retraction on my last post. I said I had Scale but after looking at the pix on the website, I think I was told Mealy bugs. Man, A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words...Ha

If you need help on Mealybugs I concider myself an expert. I nearly stopped being a gardiner here in Vietnam because of them, I am 100% free of them now.

David, the reason I say that is due to a couple of guys, to whom I took some leaves to, told me they didn't know what my issue was but they did find 3 mealy bugs in the batch of leaves I took to them. I have never seen anything crawling but I do see some white mildew looking stuff going up the veins on the leaves, tip or bottom. there are also lots of blister-like bumps on the underside of some of the leaves.  I don't think these are mealy bugs however I do see some white fluffy stuff sometimes and I have no idea what that could be. It does not look anything like an insect. As much as I hate to say, i would describe it as pure white strands of fiber grouped together; similar to what I would describe a fiber optics phone line except just a piece here and there. i finally emailed some pictures to my computer and now I need to save them so I can post them. the thing, there are so many different symptoms from different species of plants, I can't post all of them. I think I can post enough to get a good idea of whats happening.

The issue is worsening and I feel panic setting in again.  Fortunately, I have a floriculture professor ask to see some photos so I sent him some today. I hope to here from him soon as he has a two seek conference coming up soon.  The foliage is starting to wilt, just random leaves and not in one place, and have a rotten look. They turn brown and wilted. I suspect, had I caught them in time to pull them before looking like that, they would have had the black spots and/or blister looking spots with black dots in the center.

I will work on saving the pictures tonight and post a few. I hope you can pull them in tight enough to see what I am seeing on the leaves. Thanks for the help and interest.

Bart

Sounds like spidermites bart since you can't see them crawling but see blisters under the leaves



This white fluffy stuff is from white flies !  look
(http://cekern.ucdavis.edu/files/16188.jpg)


Both pest are probably stressing your plants and this is why they have yellow leaves dropping from spidermites

I have spider mites and crazy to say whiteflies as well. You need to spray your plants with a high pressure sprayer like what Charlie has in his store.
I bought one and sprayed the plants at my aunts house once a week and all of the mites are gone. I bought hort oil to spray them to make sure they where gone and now 100% spidermite free. The ones at my house I put them in the tub and use my detachable shower head and turn water on super hot and spray them under the leaves and on top.

For white flies buy any spray at home depot for the white flies I use the hot water and the bayer insect spray.  I should have taken a picture of the white fly fibers they look like strings of silk or hair.

Since your hibiscus are stress I suggest getting supernova and fertilize them with the supernova the wake up spray will help also.

I really think you have spider mites and the cold weather along with the spidermites is making you hibiscus have different symptoms. Then you have the white flies also eating the hibiscus :(

hope that helps

Thats like something from a horror movie, I hope you get it cured.

Charlie,
I had sort of the same thing happen here in Vista, California just recently.  I'm recovering from it, now, thank goodness.  I have several of my older, established hibiscus (but interestingly, none of yours) develop yellow leaves with little black spots on them.  They all dropped off and then I started to see some rather rapid branch tip die back.  Obviously some sort of fungus and probably due to all our prolonged heavy rains in December.  I am going to prune up everything, I've collected all the dropped leaves and will also dispose of my prunings in the trash to try to cut down on the spores going back into my soil.  Going to innoculate with mycorrhizae and fertilize.  I hesitate to spray fungicides or use systemic fungicides since it will kill off all the beneficial fungii.  Any idea what this was??  My gardener told me that "all the hibiscus around here have had this issue", so it seems to be fairly widespread here in Vista.

Patty S.

That's interesting, Patty. I don't know what it is but if something comes to mind or I hear some good info I will surely pass it on.

I think your program for caring for the plants is a sound one.

Charlie

Thanks, Charlie.  :)  Just ordered fertilizer from you all.  Saw that it's already on its way, thanks!  I was somewhat horrified when this started to happen, because it was very swift and sudden.  My two double pink trees lost about 1/2 their leaves and had a fair amount of branch tip die back. The other affect hibiscus were not quite so affected, but still I had about 15 other bushes affected to some degree.  They're otherwise extremely healthy.  I have never had anything more than some aphids, which are usually taken care of by a hard spray frome the hose followed by the arrival of lots of local lady bugs. Think this was just an odd fluke due to so much rain and moisture.  We really had a lot of rain on my property - a total of 13 inches in that period of December through beginning of January.  It was pretty darned wet here.

Patty S.

I'm sure you're right about the heavy and unusual rainfall being involved in the problem. There are a number of what they call water molds that cause plant diseases and there are some fungicides specifically targeted at them. The trick is to find out which is the cause. It's not easy because symptoms can be very similar and usually only a qualified lab can give a definite diagnosis. The fungicides have to be matched to the disease organism to work, and are expensive, and are not 100 percent effective. Most pros will advise prevention over cure for fungus diseases.

Charlie

Thanks, Charlie.  Fungicides are pretty nasty chemicals (I'm an RN, and this is true even for humans and anti-fungal medications for us human-folk).  I have had a LOT of fungal issues with other plants - mainly my roses - as well.  Everything is looking much, much better now that we've had some sunshire and drier weather.  Interesting to note - one of the more affected single orange hibiscus that is draped over my little pond (most damp place on my whole property) is growing RIGHT next to one of your lovely Rainbow Christy hibiscus (see my little avatar for one of its blooms).  The single orange hibiscus lost almost 1/2 its leaves and had a significant amount of tip die back.  The Rainbow Christy was completely unaffected.  Nothing.  And they are so close to each other they are intertwined.  Not one of your hibiscus were affected.   ;D  I find that very interesting!

Patty S.

Bart, do the lesions look like this? 

I thought I was done with this problem until just recently.  This came in on my Night Runner plant that I referenced earlier in this thread.  Thought I got it all but it resurged this winter.  Blackish, raised lesions that look like blisters on leaf bottoms?  They manifest differently on different cvs... the first picture is the bottom of a Night Runner leaf.  The second and third are of the mystery cv.  The problem was confined to NR until this winter-- the mites seem to be doing a fantastic job spreading this malady around.

I've had this same problem on several of my plants for about a year now. The first time I noticed it was about December 2009 on Bonnie Lass and Night Runner. It spread to several other cultivars rather rapidly. I also had my first major spider mite infestation at that time and was too ill to get after it. I haven't found any treatments for it so far other than removing the infected leaves and keeping after the spider mites which I agree seem to spread it like wildfire. I don't like using fungicides and don't want to go the Wilt Proof route either. Currently I'm rotating Neem oil, Pyola, Safer's new End All, and the old standby rinsing the plants for the spider mites. The expensive miticides are out of my price range. Some cultivars seem to handle this better than others. Chariots of Fire for example gets a few spots here and there, but they don't explode everywhere and defoliate the plant. Others like Blonde Ambition and Cindy's Heart got hit a lot harder and I thought I was going to lose both because they lost so many leaves and new growth initially was very weak. Blonde Ambition is still looking a bit weak but CH seems to have recovered. This seems harder on the slower growers. I've lost five plants so far: Heaven Scent, Night Runner, Blue Bird, Love Story, and my treasured Cherry Appaloosa. Heaven Scent is the only one I've been able to replace so far.

I hope someone comes up with a treatment for this soon.

dave

Dave I highly suggest just spraying the plants with a high pressure water sprayer. I tried everything ! and could not get rid of my spidermites until I just used a high pressure sprayer. some of my plants are outside in socal winter weather and even with the heavy rains we have been having none of my leaves are dropping. Only my H rosa-sinensis has a few black spots due to the cold. All the other Cv's are doing fine.  I am about to let my bf take some and place them on his porch and I will have to spray them also to make sure I get all the mites off.

If you have the plants in a pot this is what I do. I place plants on their side and spray them and rotate the pot so I make sure I blast water on all the underside of the leaves. ( I do not want the water getting onto the soil because most of the time they have been watered already. I don't want them getting their roots to cold either) Then I place the plants up right and spray the top of leaves really quickly so a lot of water wont be in the soil. I did this once a week for only 2 or 3 weeks.

I bought miticide off ebay that licensed nurseries can only get. I was going to use it but Charlie said I need to cover my arms and clothes and have a mask. I don't want to mess with all of that so I never used it lol.

I will try to get rid of the white flies, aphids, and mites in these up coming weeks. I need to do my indoor plants more often like every other day in a hot shower. Its really tasking on my back and knees to carry the plants to the tub so I haven't been spraying them like I should and this is why I still have the spider mites.

Now this is starting to worry me even more...  deadly or not I don't want this spreading throughout my collection.  I'm determined to get to the bottom of this.  I'm not sure if this is fungal, bacterial, or viral.  My guess is that it's not fungus, as the leaves haven't been exposed to humidity or moisture at all.  But I could be wrong.  The first step is for me to find out what I'm fighting.

I've separated out all symptomatic plants-- I hope nobody else pops up with spots.  Affected are Buttercup (ouch, such a rare cv), Sleeping Beauty, In The Mood, Valentine's Day, mystery cv, and of course Night Runner.



Dave, are all your plants from HVH or have you gotten any from other vendors?  If you have purchased from other vendors, I'm curious to see if the plant that started the infection was from the same place.  Interesting that you mention Night Runner.


Weird that this only shows up on the leaf bottoms... and the blister can't be wiped off as in Bart's case.  Charlie what do you make of all this?

Thanks Kerry. I'm pretty much doing what you suggest now though I use one of those hose end nozzles that have multiple spray selections instead of a high pressure sprayer. I find that I'm able to get very good spray pressure with it and am also able to do it outside on nice weather days. I also tip the pots on their sides to get the undersides of the leaves thoroughly but only do this for the ones that need watering. The plants that don't need watering get sprayed with one of the sprays I mentioned earlier.

I started growing the landscape hibiscus 10 or 15 years ago in containers and discovered these hybrids in 2004. The only pest problems I had all those years were aphids. The spider mites didn't show up til about 2 years ago and the first problem with whiteflies was about a year ago. Most of my collection  (I'm afraid to count how many) overwinter inside the house in 5 different areas. I have 3 south facing windows which contain most of the collection and about a dozen are under a couple of skylites. I basically treat one section at a time whenever they get dusty or if I seen even one mite. I either do the high pressure washes or spray with one of the oil sprays. Three of the five areas have been spider mite free for over a month now. I did find about 5 plants with a few mites in the living room a couple of days ago and gave them a good washing. If I see any more mites in the next few days I'll hit them with the Safer's End All which is supposed to kill all stages of the little buggers including eggs. Over time I guess I'll find out if those claims are valid. I think I've at least got the situation back under control for now, but the weird black spots are still showing up on a couple of plants.

Jordan. With the exception of the first 3 exotics I bought from a Florida vendor back in 2004, my whole collection of somewhere near 70 plants I estimate is from HVH. My first order from Charlie was in 2007. My Night Runner was a rather sickly plant when I got it and I thought I could bring it around. It didn't happen. It managed a couple of small blooms before it died rather quickly. It had some sick looking leaves and the growth was very weak, but didn't have those raised black spots.  I've lost several plants that did have the raised black spots. I think the large loss of foliage because leaves with those spots eventually turn yellow and either drop off or need to be pulled off has a similar effect to what happens with a severe spider mite infestation. If memory serves I believe Charlie thinks it could be an opportunistic infection brough about by a spider mite infestation. Some of my plants became so weakened that they just never recovered. I agree that it's probably not a fungus since wet foliage and high humidity don't seem necessary to spread it. Spider mites can certainly help spread it but don't seem necessary for that to happen either. My uneducated guess would be it is bacterial. Now what would be effective against a bacterial infection? Something with copper in it maybe?  I just noticed that my Palm Springs has a large number of those black spots on new growth and no mites to be seen, so I may just throw it out and order another one. It certainly needs to be isolated from all the others. This is definitely frustrating.

dave

Dave and Jordan, I'm not sure what to make of this. It's not happening here so I can't do any experiments or make any direct observations. I do have a consultant I can use who is a national expert on plant diseases. If I get hold of some good samples of the problem I can send them to her lab and she might be able to diagnose the problem.

Unfortunately, neither bacterial nor viral diseases have any good treatments available. A fungus would be easier but an exact diagnosis is necessary in order to know what will effectively treat it. There is something called agromycin that is an antibiotic for plants, but it doesn't work very well on bacterial pathogens that effect hibiscus. Viruses are spread by insects so the most effective thing to do if virus are suspected is to control insects as much as possible.

Cindy has researched and written an article in the upcoming Feb newsletter about some new studies of plant immune systems and possible ways to stimulate them. As she points at this is a young science and not a lot is known other than that plants do respond to pathogens and do have a unique type of immune response, different than mammals. In any case she points to some suggested ways for improving plant's own protective biochemistry that anyone can experiment with.

Charlie

I have a sick Torch Song and the only bugs that have ever infected it are spider mites, so I know that's where it got the illness. Mine looks/sounds different than your spots, Dave and Jordan. Mine sounds more like what Patty describes, and I think mine looks like one of the "spotted" viruses. It already killed 2 other of my hibiscus - all 3 were ones that got hit with the same spider mite infestation a couple of years ago. Torch Song held out for a long time and barely showed signs of the virus, but it took a nosedive this winter when the cold weather hit, even though it's inside the house. :-(

I've been researching plant immunity for quite a while, and haven't come up with much. All the universities say to throw away sick plants still! But I don't want to do that! I'm determined to find SOMETHING that works when a plant gets a viral or bacterial infection! But so far, all I have is ideas of things to try, not anything that I know works yet. Here's what I've found in the research and tried:

- Super Nova first, in high, steady doses. This often works, especially if I catch it early.

- Dark Energy - I keep trying it and see no results whatsoever, so I'm about to give it up. It's expensive and not working!

- B Vitamins - I have better luck with them as preventatives than as cures. When I lived in the cold mountains, B vitamins helped my plants make it through ice-rimed windows for months on end. As cures for infection, I'm not getting results yet.

- Vitamins D3, C - I just open a human vitamin, pour it at the base of the plant and water it into the soil. I've just started this, so I can't tell if it's working yet. It sort of seems to be working. I was losing a new deformed leaf every day, and haven't lost a single leaf for about a week on Torch Song, since I gave it the D & C, so I'm feeling hopeful.

- Aspirin - I've used aspirin in the past for stressed plants with success, especially cold stress. I've added it to my vitamin mix for my sick Torch Song, but don't know if it will work yet. Aspirin is what plants themselves use to cure themselves, so I figure it can't hurt to give mine a boost of it without the poor sick baby having to produce their own, which is stressful.

- Azelaic Acid - Another natural plant substance in sap that plants use to fight disease. We use it in expensive face creams as humans. I haven't found a source to try it for plants yet, so I don't know how well it will work. But the research looks promising.

I could go on and on on the subject, but you're probably all nodding off already now. These are my best ideas for now! 

Zzzz :P

Thanks Charlie, Cindy, and Dave for your replies.  I was reading somewhere that bacterial and viral diseases aren't systemic.  That is, they are confined to the individual leaves unless spread by a vector.  I'm hoping this is true.  I've started plucking off all symptomatic leaves on the mystery cv.  Young leaves don't yet have any spotting so this increases my hope that the problem may not be systemic. 

The problem didn't seem to effect my Night Runner that much this summer.  The leaves were just blemished.  I hope I'm worrying so much for nothing.  :)  I'll continue to update you guys on my experiment with the mystery cv and whether or not it works.  I don't want to have to throw plants away, but I don't want my entire collection contaminated either.

Cindy, very interesting, as I've never heard of giving plants vitamins or aspirin!  I use vitamins for the horses I work with but haven't ever tried anything like that with a plant.  I wonder if a good old-fashioned human antibiotic would work on a plant bacterial infection...?  I can't wait to read that article in the next newsletter.  Good luck with the Torch Song, and hope you're feeling better!

Jordan, do not start pouring your antibiotics on your plants!  That is not going to do anything and will promote antibiotic resistance in the soil bacteria living in the pot.  Those genes could potentially get transferred to a human pathogen (via conjugation and plasmid transfer) which is how antibiotic resistant infections come to be!  MRSA, VRSA, etc came to be in a similar manner (not soil bacteria necessarily) but use of antibiotics in the wrong situation lead to these pathogens being resistant.  Also, these antibiotics are made to work with the physiology of mammals, not plants.  They could be toxic and end up killing your plants! Long story short, don't be pouring your antibiotics on your plants!   

Aspirin actually makes sense to use on a plant.  Aspirin (also known as Salicylic acid) is derived from plants and is actually a plant hormone.  As Wikipedia states:

" Salicylic acid (SA) is a phenolic phytohormone and is found in plants with roles in plant growth and development, photosynthesis, transpiration, ion uptake and transport. SA also induces specific changes in leaf anatomy and chloroplast structure. SA is involved in endogenous signaling, mediating in plant defense against pathogens.[4] It plays a role in the resistance to pathogens by inducing the production of pathogenesis-related proteins.[5] It is involved in the systemic acquired resistance (SAR) in which a pathogenic attack on one part of the plant induces resistance in other parts. The signal can also move to nearby plants by salicyclic acid being converted to the volatile ester, methyl salicylate.[6]"

Therefore it may help stimulate the plant "immune system" and help fight off plant pathogens.  Good luck with your plants!

 

Yes, exactly, Chris! Salicylic acid seems to be the first line of defense in plant after plant that has been studied for immunology. But it stresses plants badly to have to make their own salicylic acid, so now they've discovered the chemical cascade that produces salicylic acid, and azelaic acid is the chemical that floods the plant first and cycles into the salicylic acid. Some new research has found that spraying plants with azelaic acid helps the plant build salicylic acid throughout all parts of the plant quickly without the stress that building salicylic acid usually causes.

I've been looking for a place to get azelaic acid and haven't found one yet. I could buy a metric ton of it from China, LOL, but that's not exactly practical. But I'm sure there's some lab chemical supply company that I'll find it from eventually.

Thanks Charlie, Cindy, Kerry, and Jordan. I'll be in the dark on this for a while as my pc has some serious issues going on and my pc tech is coming by to pick it up today. I may be without it for several days. I may go into serious withdrawal. Yikes

We are also in the middle of a serious cold wave for our part of the country with expected highs in the low 30s and lows in the teens for the next few days. Ok you guys in Conn and Colorado, please don't laugh. I know that's swimming wx for you. We even have a wind chill in single digits this morning. Kinda rare for here. Still lucky to escape what most of the rest of the country is experiencing right now and at least we don't have the snow and ice to deal with.

dave

Good luck with both the weather and your pc, Dave!  Both hitting at the same time is bad!!!!!

Its cool huh Cindy! I really think its interesting that worm castings increase chitinase activity.  Since fungi are composed of chitin, when you increase chitinase, you increase the ability for this enzyme to break down chitin. This prevents those fungi from infecting your plants, since the chitinase breaks down the chitin in the fungi!  I wonder what the active ingredient is in worm castings ?  :) 

Wow, that is interesting, Chris! I'll try to research that. There are a lot of chitin-blocker pest control products, including pet flea pills. I wonder if the worms produce chitinase to help them break down dead insect matter as they munch through soil? I wonder what else they produce? If they eat dirt, they must make a lot of very strong enzymes.

The whole world of plant immunology and communication is still uncharted territory, and we have so much to learn! It's fascinating, but also frustrating that we know so little.

Another thing I've used to save sick plants is coffee! It sounds really weird, but I've had some plants that were on their last leg and ready to go into the garbage anyway. So I figure maybe a drastic pH change will prevent an unfriendly environment for the disease microbe. I water the plant with pure coffee for 2-3 weeks to really acidify the soil and the whole plant. I do that so commonly that I forgot to mention it, and I've had pretty good results with it.

Once I get the disease to stop spreading further through the plant, then a little root pruning and about 1/2 inch of fresh potting soil in the bottom of the pot, with hefty doses of Super Nova or Houseplant Formula, vitamin D, and Wake Up Spray can finish pulling the plant through the disease and make new healthy leaves start growing. The new root growth produces growth hormones all through the plant, which seems to do the final trick of fighting off the disease for good.

Ok that is awesome that you mention coffee, because Ive been watering my banana plant with my leftover coffee and it is loving it.  Acid and tannins must be a good source of fertilizer!

I am glad you remembered that Chitin makes up insect skeletons, so if a plant is producing chitinase.  When pest insects try to eat a plant that has lots of chitinase, it could be pretty unpalatable.

What is interesting about worms is there has been a group of bacteria that only live in the gut, which help break down the yummies the worm eats.  Its a relatively new group a bacteria and I had a nice long conversation about them with the scientist that discovered them!  Very cool stuff, I am looking forward to what your research brings up! 

OH no, don't worry, that was merely speculation!  I'll leave it up to someone else to do the research.  ;)  I do want to try... I think Louis mentioned it... catching a few earthworms and putting them in the pots.  My concern would be the Kontos.  It would probably kill them.  I have worm castings but I'm not sure how long they last,  especially with the heat we get out here in the summertime. 

Great info everyone ! Cindy your experiements are awesome I will try asprin and coffee next time I think a plant wont make it.

I have a suggest for the bumps under leaves again. What if they are galls ?

And Cindy I found AZELAIC ACID but what percent are you looking for ? When I googled this it is used in facial masks/ products lol

There are a few labs I found who sale it at 95% they wont sale to residential places but since you and Charlie have a business they may :)

That's great, Kerry!  If you get a chance, please email me the link for the azelaic acid source and I'll look into it.

It's interesting, but it's used in skin creams for things like acne and psoriasis. So it has a curative effect for infections in human skin as well as in plants.  I could get it in creams but thought it might not work too well to slather my plants with face cream! LOL

I'm so sorry for the lengthy absence.  Farmhouse, the answer is Yes. It look like this and in many cases could be much worse before the leaf finally starts to wilt, turn brown and fall, if I don't see it quick enough to take it. I am actually out of town tonight and heading inside to my hotel room. I'll do my darndest to try and post some PO's from my laptop unless someone can tell me how to post to the site from an iPhone. I have since found that by using something with a very small, sharp tip (needle) the bumps, blisters or lesions actually do come off the leaf. One guy said it appeared to him that some sort of bug was inside the liesons. I suppose that could be true but I cant see them, or at least I can't tell it's an insect of some kind wrapped up in a bubble of some sort. One thing for sure though, they can be pried away. You are also correct in that, they appear different depending on the cultivar.

I am so frustrated at this point, I am considering discarding all my cloned plants and try to just concentrate on the large plants that I got from HVH. Just too many plants for one person to deal with if they're not healthy and if I continue to work with them at the rate I have been and am, I could become burnt out completely and I've enjoyed raising these plant too much to allow that to happen.

Let me see about a picture. If I get them posted and you see anything that feels familiar to you, you are welcome to call me to discuss and i could share our discussion with our friends. Just a thought. Let me see what I can get done.

Thanks very much,
Bart

Darkhorse, I just looked at one of the pics again and it looks exactly like the ones you posted. Just thought I'd add that

Bart

Bart, I'm anxious to see some of your pictures.  Have you looked at what you're peeling off under a magnifying glass?

Bart, if the bumps come off the leaf that is a whole different scenario than what we've discussed in the past. That would suggest that they are a type of scale, of which there are many. With hibiscus we commonly find the white scale called snow scale on plants shipped from Florida where this pest has established itself. They are easy to see and identify because they are tiny and bright white. But, there are hundreds of types of scale, most of which are dark colored so that they blend against the bark and are not spotted by predators. Many scale share the trait of forming a protective shell over themselves once they settle in to feed on a plant. This shell is usually impervious to pesticide sprays so only systemics will get rid of them. You can also smother small scale by coating them with undiluted horticultural oil. Scale in small numbers can just be scraped off with a fingernail or knife. Safari is pretty good at killing them systemically.

Scale mostly are found on woodier parts of plants, so if these are scale it is puzzling to find them on leaves. Mealy bugs are the other type of insect that attacks hibiscus and builds a waxy coating over themselves for protection. They are commonly found on leaves but the waxy coating is white and looks like cotton. But, if the plants are sprayed a lot, as I think Bart does, that waxy coating could be affected by the sprays and might turn into something like what is seen on the leaves.

Bart, the important thing for you to do is to determine if anything is living inside or under the blister. If it is an insect then the solution is quite different than if it is a fungus or bacterial problem.

Charlie

The Blisters, black spots, bumps or/and as of today when I looked it them through a 60X microscope, Melanoma looking things, some do appear to have bugs inside. I've yet to see anything move or crawl after peeling one up. They are all on the undersides of the leaves. Some (the ones I refer to ad blisters)are clear and you can see inside them. Some of those don't show anything and others have a brown or black spot within the blister. We peeled one up and the guy that was with me swears the spot was an insect of some kind but it couldn't be made out. The Black spots have little, if any clear-like bubble encasing them that I can tell but it can be peeled off leaving the leaf in tact as long as I'm careful. Don't really know what the center is comprised of. I saw some radar that looks nasty. They are not uniform and are solid black thus I refer to them as Melanoma.

Charlie, I also am finding a white mildew/moldy looking stuff on some leaves. Also I can see small white specs that sounds consistent with the Melanoma  bug covering bit when I try to remove these, they break up in prices and I don't see any bugs.

One more thing, if I run my hands through the leaves, I see lots of tiny insect looking things coming out. They appear they can fly but they are so tiny (almost like dust particles) I can't make them out and I've never seen them on leaves. That is odd.

Summary- I have found I can remove the spots if careful. They are under the leaves (other than the white spots and they could show up top or bottom. Apparently the spots began as insects or bugs of some kind but I don't know how they resist the pyrithrins, Permethrin, acephate, spinosads and Avid over time. Spraying just doesn't seem to be the answer. I've even used Azamax lately. The plant roots are as healthy and white as snow.

I told you guys that I would attempt the pics again but to be honest, I sat on the edge of the hotel bed and fell asleep within minutes; just exhausted. I have stopped at a McDonalds to type this up. It's best I don't attempt typing while driving. A quick text caused me to total my ages car about a year ago in Cincy.   I'm not going to promise but, I'll be home in an hour  will give the pics another try. I know how important it is to see something. If that doesn't work, I would be glad to email each of you the latest pictures or I would be glad to mail some of the leaves. They actually hold up pretty we in a plastic sandwich bag.

Please forgive all typos as I try typing this only phone. I hope this helps !

Thank you guys very much. I've been gone from home since Tuesday so there is no telling what I will see when I arrive home.
Have a great weekend. I plan to spray again tomorrow. I sprayed last Sunday and I need to see if I can wipe out a generation of whatever it is. Just trying something at this Point

Bart, if it helps email me the pictures dvd.wood@yahoo.com and I will put them on the Forum. That white mildew/moldy looking stuff is most probably mealy-bugs, we will see.

Bart, you may have more than one thing going on, which would be typical. But, dealing with the "things" that are on the leaves and can be removed should be a first step.

As I explained before, scale and mealy bugs resist sprays by building a protective coat over themselves. There are only 4 ways to get to them that I have found. First is to use a systemic pesticide. This is NOT sprayed. You have to apply it to the soil where it enters into the plant and circulates through the plant. When the insect feeds on plant juices it takes in the systemic pesticide and is killed. Safari or Bayers Tree and Shrub are what you need to try. I recommend Safari because it does not stimulate spider mite egg laying the way the imidacloprid in Bayers does. Use it at the highest rate recommended on the label.

The second way to deal with these insects that are protected by armor is to suffocate them by covering them with horticultural oil that is not diluted. Use a paint brush or a small spray bottle to apply the oil straight out of the bottle. BUT, the oil can damage the leaves if sprayed the normal way. You have to apply the oil only to the insects and not cover the leaves with it. Works best with snow scale that live mostly on the woody stems that are not damaged by the oil.

The third way is to use a Limonene spray. This stuff is derived from the peels of citrus fruit and is a powerful cleaner and degreaser. But, at the right dose it is also an excellent insecticide. When sprayed on a mealybug you can watch the armor melt right in front of your eyes. I've only had one outbreak of mealybug and it was spreading rapidly until I used limonene to stop it cold. No mealies since. It may not work as well on scale but I can't say because I haven't had any scale other than Florida Snow Scale and I kill them with undiluted horticultural oil.

If I was in your situation I would apply Safari to the soil of all my pots and then spray the leaves with limonene (careful you get a correctly diluted dose or you could kill all the plants). Forget the other sprays you mentioned, they are worthless against adult mealies and scale. Here is the page for more info on limonene. http://www.hiddenvalleynaturearts.com/acatalog/limonene.htm

The flying dust particles you mention are just that. Insects leave waste and shed outer bodies as they mature and these dry up and stay on leaves until the leaves are disturbed. As long as the "dust" settles and does not actually fly about it's nothing to worry about.

Good luck!

Charlie

Thanks David for offering your help. I just tried the iPad and it doesn't work so I have the laptop out now. I am just astonished at the amount of people who are sincerely trying to help me here and I owe everyone, and my plants, all the information I can provide. I am giving this another try on my laptop. the only issue I may run into is downsizing the size of the pics; we'll see. 

When I got home last night after 4 days away, there wasn't a doubt that I would find various looking issues as I alway do when no one is taking the leaves before the insect/fungi/bacteria/whatever engulfs the leaf. Over the next few post from me, I will attempt to add pics of some of the different things I've seen and still see. Hopefully this process might help me to eliminate the easier issues leaving the more difficult for last. I am just praying I don't have something systemic and I end up burying all my plants just to begin all over again. 

Bart
(http://)

OK Guys,
I think I have figured it out. Now I am going to try and choose a variety of pictures that will hopefully give you guys some kind of idea of my woes. I came very close of throwing all my plants away 2 weeks ago as I am spending all my time with them tying to just keep the bad leaves off the plants and re-potting clones of which most likely have the same disease, if this is disease, all the mother plants have.  What a mess-smile.

Please allow me a couple of hours as I need to go see my new grand-baby prior to getting wrapped up into my gardening, which I have a habit of doing.  What a great bunch of people on this forum. Charlie, you have some great friends!

Bart

Oh boy those spots... at least the black ones... look familiar.  Bart, do you have a smaller plant that you could isolate and pick off every single spotted leaf that pops up?  If you could quarantine this plant, and see if the leaf picking works for you... I say this because that's what I'm doing right now with my mystery cv.  It seems that new leaves aren't "born" with the spots.  If your plants have the same problem as mine, it might work.  Again from what I've read leaf diseases usually aren't systemic; they're normally spread by pest vectors--  spider mites in my situation.  So far the leaf picking is working with the mystery cv and none of the new leaves are coming up with spots.