Hidden Valley Hibiscus Forum

Hey Charlie,

I've been looking at this one for a long time, are you still propagating it?  Because it loves hot weather, I really want to see how it does in the high dessert where summers are in the triple digits July-September. :)  (the 4-6 day flowers are also a plus) 

Do you ever use it in crosses?     

so many cvs so little space :(

-Chris

Hi Chris, yes we have about 10 pots of Cindy's Heart that will be ready in July perhaps. I'd love to see how it does in hot conditions. I've been watching 2 flowers on an older bush of it for almost a week now and they just keep on shining! It may be the longest lasting hibiscus flower I've grown. How it will do elsewhere will be interesting.

I don't ever seem to find any pollen on it, nor have I got it to set seed. Admittedly there have not been enough plants of it around to really give it a try in the right conditions at the right time of year so maybe..........

Charlie

Oh Awesome!  I am on the waiting list for it, so hopefully this is my chance :)  I have a feeling it will do good, I plan on exposing rosalind to full sun and triple digits, so if I can get a hold of CH, it would be a great comparison.  I read that one of your customers had her in New Orleans, but it will be interesting to see if she does as well in the hot dry heat of inland California.  crossing my fingers for this one.  :)

I am on the waiting list also.  CH, sounds likea great Hib for North Texas

John

Charlie, I was on the waiting list last year for CH, and was not fast enough when you sold them this year.  Then I heard you had a computer crash and lost the wait list. I have gotten back on the wating list again, so the question is: If we are on a wait list, you put them in the store, and they sell out before I get up in the morning, do we still stay on the wait list ?
John

John, this is a Cindy question. She handles this and it's a big job for her. I'll tell her you're asking and I'm sure she will answer.

Charlie

I was just answering this question in email to someone else, so it's a good question.  

I didn't even get a chance to send out waiting list notices with this last update! People discovered that I was updating and swooped in and bought stuff as fast as I could put it on the page. It was almost kind of scary how fast it all disappeared. Usually I get all the pages stocked, then send out all the emails, and the emails alert people to the store being restocked. This time something in the air must have alerted them!  

But the answer to your question, John is this:

If I send you an email to tell you something is in stock, and you don't get the cv, then you'll need to email me back to tell me you didn't get it and I'll put you back on the waiting list. The email I send you takes you off the waiting list, so you have to do something to get back on it.

But I don't care how many times you put yourself on the waiting list. It doesn't hurt anything to be on there more than once or the same cv. So if in doubt, always submit another email for any cv you really want.

It's a far-from-perfect system, obviously! I keep trying to think of ways to make it work better. I'm always open to suggestions if anyone has one! If I fully automate it though, it could send out emails to 35 people that a cv is back in stock when we only have 10 plants to sell.  That's why I keep trying to do it by hand. But doing it by hand isn't working so well either. :-/  

I guess we really just need to grow more hibiscus!

Cindy

Wow Cindy,

I dont know how you do it!  That is so much work to personally write each person on the waitlist, kudos!

My favorite CV, next to Saffron.  It is a blooming NUT!!  And so eye catching.  Here are some photos to share!

Hi,what size pot have you got that cv in,i am thinking of getting Cindy's Heart and growing it in doors.

Those are some gorgeous examples of Cindy's Heart. Nice idea to show the size, too.

Charlie

I bought this plant as a 6" in June.  I potted it up to an 8ish I think, maybe 10".  Leme go look.... yep, 8".  I'm hoping I can keep it in that size pot for a couple years.  Not sure that's possible.  I'm so new at this.  I have been known to WAY OVER POT my plants.  I would get a 4" plant, and get the biggest pot I could find 14-20" (cause it's gonna be big one day right??)  But times have changed and I am learning how to be a successful gardener.  

I totally suggest this CV.  It is such a great bloomer, and I'm thinking it might be a little resilient to bugs.  When I was going through my spider mite drama, CH wasn't touched...she didn't appreciate all the oil I was spraying on her just to be safe, but she never got a single bug!

Charlie, It looks smaller then it is.  If you flatten the edges out on the flower, it is almost 10"

Very nice!  Looks alot better than my Cindy's Heart.  Only had one bloom on it and the bush is more lanky than I like.  I will be pruning it next month, but I want to see at least a few blooms now!

Yes, I noticed that there was room to stretch it some more, but 9 inches was impressive enough. We haven't gotten enough Cindy's Heart out there to call it a tried and true yet. It has to do well not only in our greenhouse and garden but also in other places and other situations. Right now if you have one it is one of less than 50 growing in the entire world.

Charlie

 I am honored to have one this beautiful.  You really gave me a great one.  It earned a place in the sunny over-winter window this winter!

Those are incredible blooms of Cindy's Heart and the bush looks really healthy.

Charlie, this is the first bloom on mine since a recent move to an area of the greenhouse that gets much brighter light. The move appears to have increased the amount of pink compared to the earlier blooms.  The bloom is still a little small at 6 1/2 inches across which has been about average so far.  Note several missing leaves in the middle of the bush from spider mites.  Mine was also a 6 inch pot size purchase and was quickly moved to an 8 inch pot.  The bush to the left is Cherry Appaloosa.

dave

That's an improvement in color, Dave. I suspect the full color and size is coming soon.

Charlie

Are you kidding? That's the best looking Cherry Appaloosa bush ever..... Taking the time to stake and train young plants that need it really pays off.

Charlie

Charlie,

  I know you said that CH is not a seed setter and doesn't give any pollen.  I have to admit, I have been trying.  Every time a bloom opens on her, I find someone to get pollen from.  Whether that be Saffron, Belle, Sunny Wind, or even a hardy Lord Baltimore.  But nothing yet.  I get a pod that looks like it may start to swell and then yellow and nuttin!  But I have been watching this one seed pod grow and grow on her.  I don't have one of my twist ties and labels on it because it is not one that I put pollen on...  I have been good about labeling them, I listened to you!  But this is the weirdest thing.  What do you make of this?  Is it real?  Or is it something she does.  I am getting really excited about it, should I?

Yes, you should get excited!!! All the possible combinations have not been tried and there is always that  chance that this will be the one!

For example, in order to prove that the species plants we have collected are indeed species and not early hybrids the best technique available to us is to pollinate a flower of the species with pollen from a flower of that species. If we then grow the seeds and the plants that grow and bloom are identical to the one that set the seeds than we can make a reasonable conclusion that we do indeed have a species plant. If instead we can some pink and some double red we know we have a hybrid.

OK, to the point - I tried with our H liliflorus several times and could not get it to set seed. Cindy took that as a challenge and has continued to pollinate every flower on her houseplant H liliflorus. After many tries, she got a pod and when it ripened it had 1 seed. I have now planted it but we do not know if it will germinate or how it will grow once it does. Still, persistence paid off in this case.

That said, it is still quite likely the pod on Cindy's Heart will either fall off due to no seeds or remain on the plant but empty. You should note the date and if 12 weeks pass go ahead and break open the pod. By that time there will be ripe seeds inside or no seeds. If the pod falls off when it is near the time for it to be ripe - say after 6 weeks in summer, do not break it open but instead put it in a tiny open container so it can stand upright with just enough water in the bottom of the container to cover the stem of the pod. Often that will allow the pod to ripen normally and when it turns brown and cracks open the seeds will be a nice ripe brown/black color.

I'm thrilled that you are trying and would love to see a new hybrid come out of Cindy's Heart. Hot weather is usually fatal for seedpods but in shade or in the house you can get some to make viable seeds even in summer.

Charlie

Awesome.  By the size of it I would say about 2-3 weeks old?  I may have pollinated it, but didn't label it.  I have a label on a stem right next to it.  It is either by Saffron, Belle, Sunny Wind, Baja Breeze, or the hardy Lord Baltimore.  Because those are the only flowers I have has as of yet.  I actually have a pod starting on Saffron from Lord Baltimore. 

  Cindy is in the sun, but the temps have been much more reasonable.  70-80º  60's at night.  And many overcast days lately also. I will baby it and keep you posted!

Those conditions are perfect for hybridizing except for the sun. Good luck and keep us informed!!!

Charlie

OK, here is a Cindy's Heart seed pod update.  The pod looks the same, I don't think it has gotten much bigger, it is still green and healthy looking, but does have some wrinkles in it.  I am hoping it ripens soon because the wait is torture!  Here are some photos from this morning. 

So far, so good. I hope there are some seeds but have to add that the pod looks typical of one that is empty. They fool me sometimes so please don't give up on it (as if you would  :)  )

Charlie

Oh you know I wont.  It will be happy this week in the house too!  Maybe it will be ready when I get back!

Is Cindy's Heart a grafted variety? It appears to me that it is. It is probably the fastest growing cultivar I have.

John, Cindy's Heart will occasionally root but I tend to graft it for more certain success. I think it likes or needs heat more than some varieties. The ones in my heated greenhouse are twice as large as the one planted in our outdoor garden. In any case, I am glad yours is growing well. It is most likely grafted since i stopped rooting it 2 years ago.

Charlie

Soooo Yesterday guess what?! 

  The pod opened and gave me 4 seeds!!!  They are black and fuzzy.  I couldn't believe my eyes!  I put them in a small 3" pot with Foxfarm seed starter soil and got them nice and moist.  I have them under the grow lights in my office along with some random cuttings.  It is pretty warm in there, unlike outside.  Should I cover the pot with seran wrap?  Or just keep it watered well? 

 I am going to go to my Organically Grown store today and get one of those heat mats.  Are seeds better in the those small plastic cells with the dome over top, or is the teracotta pot they are in ok, or should I have put them in plastic.  And is the fact that I put them all in one pot OK?  So many questions.....

How exciting!!!

They should be planted very shallow - barely any dirt over the top of the seeds, about 1/4 inch at most. Then do not keep it too wet - too wet kills a lot more seeds than anything else. Yes, it does need to be moist but not soggy.

If you have a suitable thermometer you can check the soil temperature at the depth the seeds are planted. Ideally it will stay around 80 but anything from 70 to 90 is acceptable. They do much better at warmer temps like 80-85 if that is possible.

The domes are very helpful in situations where it is difficult to get the temperature up high enough. If your spot is warm as it might be under the lights then you don't need a dome. A thermometer is a big help because then you don't have to guess whether it is warm enough. The domes also hold in humidity but that is not as important for seeds as it is for cuttings and can cause damping off if too much humidity is present.

Yes, you can plant them all in one pot. That is convenient but poses the challenge of transplanting them later without damaging the roots. It's not hard to do, but let's wait until you have seedlings with real leaves on them before doing any transplanting. The first pair of what look like leaves are not really leaves and will usually fall off as soon as real leaves appear.

Good luck!

Charlie

Since you did not nick them it is likely that they will need at least a week and maybe 2 weeks to germinate. Just keep them warm and lightly moist during that time and hopefully seedlings will pop up!

Gratz Kristen!  Maybe by the end of next summer we will see those first blooms!

I don't remember how deep I put them... Should I pull them out and re-set them?  I went and bought the seed setter heat mat and thermostat.  I will hook it up tomorrow.  I think I can set a temp, should I set it at 80?

Kristen, I would find them and plant them again because going too deep is often fatal. Don't do anything else to them except replanting as shallow as you can but still be covered. 80F is fine.

Charlie

OK thanks, will do right now.  I went out and bought a meat thermometer and it is saying it is 80º.

Good, Kristen. Now you just have to wait patiently, kind of hard at times!

Charlie

Charlie, I was just wondering.  I don't know enough about hybridizing, or gardening in this respect.  But the seeds I got for CH, were they pollinated by another plant, ie: Saffron, Belle, Baja Breeze or Sunny Wind?  Or is it something that the plant did from itself?  I don't know how to ask this question and make me not sound like an idiot, or if I am saying what I am thinking...  Anyhow, I ask this because my hardy Lord Baltimore has seed pods all over it one being from me taking one LB and brushing it against another LB flower on the same plant, and the others had to have been from its own flowers as well because there are no other hardys around.  Do you get what I'm saying?  I was just wondering if these tropical hybrids can set their own seeds from themselves like LB did?

Your LB is self pollinating. Since you said the seed pod on your CH was not one you tried to pollinate it is hard to say whether your seed pod was a result of self pollination or cross pollination. At least that is how I understand it. Of course Charlie would know better than me.

I believe CH was a result of a High Voltage self pollination.

I also forgot to add that CH has 3 more pods forming on her right now... one might be a Simple Pleasures cross...  not sure. 

Kristen, the most likely cause of the seeds is that you pollinated the flower with pollen from one of your other exotic hibiscus plants. A cross with Lord Baltimore is very unlikely because it is a different species and does not have the same number of chromosomes. A less likely but possible scenario is that pollen from the Cindys Heart bloom reached the staminal pads of that same bloom and a successful pollination resulted. This would be more likely if you placed the pollen on the pads yourself because the original pollinators of wild hibiscus are tropical creatures (no one knows exactly what they were although Chris and I have some speculative ideas) and are unlikely to be living in Connecticut. Another remote possibility is that the hormone in Wake-up spray caused this to happen, but that is only possible if you have been spraying Wake-up on this plant.

You can successfully pollinate a hybrid hibiscus using pollen from another flower on the same plant or from another plant of the same variety. It is less common than cross pollination with a different variety but does happen. By coincidence, a seedling grown from one of Kerry's seeds just bloomed for me and she reported it as a self cross of Gators Pride - Gators Pride x Gators Pride. Unfortunately I did not have the camera with me to get a photo. The just opening bloom looked a lot like Gators Pride but darker in color.

My suggestion is that you should usually cross pollinate when you have 2 or more blooms open at the same time.  But, if you only have 1 flower open then why not try a self cross - sometimes it may work!

Doll is correct in that Cindy's Heart is High Voltage x High Voltage. The seeds came from using a growth retarding hormone on a High Voltage plant followed by a high dose of a growth promoting hormone. This caused all the flowers on that plant to form seed pods that contained viable seeds. I read an article later that explained why this can happen but don't remember the details. The problem with the technique is that it is very hard on the mother plant and may ruin it so I don't do this technique any more.

I sure hope you see a little seedling peaking up out of the soil soon!

Charlie

Thanks for all the information.  I guess that the humming birds and bees must have pollinated it with Saffron or Belle.  Not with herself as I inspect each bloom I get and have never seen any pollen, ever.   I am keeping the seeds warm and moist.  Hope to see them sprout! 

 I don't have or use wakeup spray.  The only thing I have sprayed on them is the Bondie oil for mites, and Bondie systemic insect control, but only once.  I use fertalizer every week with HVH boost, HVH fert, Super Nova, peroxide, vinegar, and a drop of soap.  Cindy was talking about tweaking that recipe, but I haven't found where she posted it to change it up.  So I just keep on with this.  BTW, can I use this fert every week through the winter?

Thanks so much for your help Charlie, couldn't do any of this right without you!
~Kristen

You've done an excellent job, Kristen! Growing hibiscus and/or hybridizing involves a lot of seemingly simple steps but if not done right lots of problems result. The CH seeds remain a mystery to me. I have always had many bees, wasps, and hummingbirds in the greenhouses used for hybridizing but have never had a pod with seeds that I did not hand pollinate. Pollination of flowers is a fascinating subject but the bottom line is that plants and the creatures that pollinate them evolved together in the environments where they are naturally found. Hibiscus have been moved from their native environments and if it was not for humans they would die out in much of the world. I guess you could say we have become the pollinators for hibiscus - tricked us with their beauty to do the job for them! We also propagate them by cuttings and grafts but without us few hibiscus seeds would ever be made. There are so few wild stands of hibiscus remaining in their original environments that most are on the endangered species lists. As land use shrinks their environment the creatures that pollinate them also disappear. Anyway, it's very neat that you got these seeds, however it happened.

By the way, please check your email for one from Cindy about shipping the plant Dee picked out for you at the Open House. Thanks.

Charlie

So I had 3 out of the 4 sprout within 10 days.  The 4th one is finally showing.  BUT....  I did a horrible thing today.  While giving them some water, I hit one sprout with the stream and caused the tiny 1" stem to tip over a bit.  I righted it gently with my finger.  Then I left the humidity dome off while I went to the barn to ride for a couple hours.  When I got back, the one that tipped looks bent over and wilty.  I don't think that when it tipped it snapped.  I think it was OK.  I misted it with plain water and put the dome back on.  It doesn't look any better yet and it had been 8 hours.  What should I do?  I was thinking I could take a tooth pick and erect the little sprout and use the tooth pick as a crutch?  Or is it a goner.  I will get my camera so you can see what I am talking about.

Here they are.  In the big picture, the damaged one is in the back, the one just starting to sprout is in the front, the best is on the right, it is prolly 1  1/2" with 3 tiny leaves and the one in the middle is about 1"  about the same the damaged one was.

4 out 4 - that's really good! Seedlings lead a precarious life, from mice eating them to something knocking them over to fungus disease attacking the point where the stem enters the ground. Yours are looking good so far. I don't know what will happen with the knocked over one - if new true leaves emerge it should be fine. It's best not to transplant them until they are much larger.

Charlie

Charlie,  the damaged one died... but then the one that was struggling came out of its shell.  And the one that first sprouted is doing great! 

First question.  These all sprouted differently, at different times, and now are growing at different rates.  They all have the same conditions.  Hypothetically, Does that mean that will be their growth habit for that particular cv?  Like the one that took forever to come up, will it be a slow growing cv, compared to the one that is going nuts?

Also, two (and this may have something to do with the lack of growth) are stunted, and I noticed some brown spots, and some tiny holes, and the leaf curling a bit.  I took my mag to look but couldn't tell what was wrong.  I took a Q tip and swiped both sproutlings.  And on each I found a tiny microscopic larvae looking thing.  It was cream colored with a black spot for a face.  Almost looked like a micro grub...  I have no idea what that may be, and what to do now... I can't put any systemic or spray on them yet?  What do you suggest?

It's natural to think that what you see in the seedling is what you will get later on. And to some extent it is true but the surprising thing is that once clones are made by grafting or rooting cuttings those plants can be quite different in growth habit. We never rule out a variety because the seedling plant does not grow the way we want it to. If all else is good it is still worthwhile growing some clones to see how they perform.

There are many factors that affect germination and most are unrelated to growth vigor of the plant. Your slow to germinate one could easily catch up with the others in the coming weeks. If it was damaged in some way in the struggle to get out of the seed shell it might be affected as a seedling plant but its clones will not suffer the same damage since it was physical and not genetic. Basically, it is too soon to tell how these will do in the future.

Charlie

How interesting but sort of scary, right? Seedlings are very vulnerable to insects or fungus at this stage. It would help if we could identify the pest but that seems unlikely. Do you have any spinosad? That is a gentle pesticide and kills caterpillars as well as thrips. It might do the job without hurting the seedlings. If it is possible to use the Q-tip to clean the critters off that would be the safest and surest thing to do.

Have they developed the first set of real leaves yet? After that they are tougher and I spray them lightly as needed without a problem. Usually they don't need any treatment until they are a few inches tall with several sets of leaves and by that stage they are very resistant to almost everything except being eaten by rabbits or mice or anything that likes tender leaves.

Let us know what happens!

Charlie

So there are these microscopic fly's on my seedlings.  They are found crawling around in the dirt, don't know if they are the culprit or not, maybe the larvae is theirs?  I can't seem to get rid of them.  I was thinking they came from the soil being too moist for my cuttings that are in the same dome.  So I let them dry out a bit, now they are on the seedlings.  I tried my best to get a photo of them.  Literally, they are the size of the dot at the bottom of this explanation point (!) not an easy shot!  And I included some of the seedling shots.

Kristen, I think the seedlings need to be taken out from under the dome. That brown on the leaves of one looks like what happens when the humidity is higher than they need. An ideal situation for them would be to sit on top of a heating mat but outside the dome. They seem to grow so slowly now but they will pick up speed as they grow larger.

Charlie

Really??  Take them out of the dome?  I'm scared!

Go for it, Kristen, take it off! I don't have a dome per se, I used clear 2-liter soda bottles with the top cut off and holes punched in over mine and took them off as soon as the seedlings started to grow their first real leaves. They're sitting in my kitchen window and are getting a lot of light, even some evening sun if we're lucky, and they're doing fine :)

Looking good, Uli. Almost out of the most dangerous time for seedlings.

Kristen, the domes are great for holding heat in but they can become too humid. At over 90 percent rel humidity there is a real danger of fungus disease overwhelming the plants. You could take it off in the day and put it back on at night to help solve that problem.

Charlie

Kristen, I need to amend that advice because I remembered that you have cuttings inside, too. They need humidity until they begin to form roots but they also can be harmed if the humidity goes over 90 percent. Some domes come with a hole in the top that is adjustable, but others have no hole. You can make holes in them or another way to deal with the humidity is to set the dome off center on the tray so that there are gaps at both ends where the dome is not sitting squarely on the tray edges. That way fresh air can enter and the humidity will be lowered. But really, you can just take the seedlings out altogether as long as you can keep them warm.

Charlie

I opened up the holes all the way.  Im pretty sure the brown spots are from that grub like bug eating it.  I swipe it daily with the Q-tip.  Thanks for all the help!

Charlie, I know it's still early in the game but at what point do we start pinching the seedlings?

There are 2 schools of thought on pinching seedlings. The first is not to pinch them going on the idea that this will get you to first bloom the fastest. The second is to pinch them when young so that they will form more branches. If done when young, the first bloom will be set back very little if at all. For me the second one makes sense because when I get a great first bloom I want to be able to get as much wood from the seedling as possible to create more plants with. I also think this one makes sense for anyone planning to grow the seedling and not take wood because it makes for a nicer looking and full plant. But the first option is best for those with limited space who do not intend to propagate from the seedling or if they do just a few plants for protection (in case the seedling dies) and for a few friends. You can pinch them when they are as small as 6 inches in height or wait until they are 1-2 feet or just let them grow without pinching all the way to first flower.

What are you going to do?

Charlie

Lol, I'm a pincher. Remember the tip borers? The benefit of these little buggers is that I now have a bunch of beautifully branched little plants with tons of buds. So at 6 inches it's going to be 'off with their heads!' :)

Charlie, I took a cutting from CH since I had a branch that was growing horizontally right above the graft. If it does root will it just grow much slower than the grafted ones? I remember you said at one time you grew CH on its own roots.

Doll, unless there is something wrong with it you should see normal growth from Cindy's Heart on its own roots.  Normal for this variety which is on the slow side. A grafted one might grow a little faster but the rooted ones can do fine. Getting it to root is the trick - be prepared to wait awhile for it to happen.

How well has your current one grown?

Charlie

Seems like Cindy's Heart is a great brancher though, mine was cut back before the move and she is sending out alot of new growth.  Very beautiful leaves and blooms, I guess it would have to with the name Cindy's Heart :)

Actually my CH has been the fastest growing cultivar for me. I'm always a little surprised when you say it is a slow grower. Maybe it just likes the heat here in Texas.

I agree, it does seem to be a heat lover. I'm glad to hear yours is vigorous.

Charlie

Hi Charlie,  Thought I would give you an update on the seedlings.  They are happy and I haven't lost any.  I do however have some interesting leaves that I though you should see.  As I have never done this, I don't know if this is just normal?  Or maybe it is something I should be worried about.  The big one is the biggest of the 3 CH seedlings.  The other is the funniest looking red leaves from a Saffron X Belle.  Check it out.

Hi Kristin. The leaves are pretty, aren't they? Their appearance is entirely normal, nothing to worry about. It would be quite interesting if hibiscus would continue to make these colorful leaves as they mature, but they don't. As the seedlings grow older the colors will become all green and with very few exceptions the leaves will change in shape to the type you are familiar with. This happens most of the time before the first flower is seen.

You probably noticed that we were excited over the last couple of years by discovering that offspring of Creme de Cacao will sometimes retain the unusual leaf forms that they have as juveniles. The leaf color becomes all green but the interesting leaf form remains even on adult clones of some varieties with Creme de Cacao as parent. We will be featuring several of these on a special page in the online store starting January 1 - called Fascinating Foliage. The flower colors can be anything on these varieties, but browns and blues are heavily represented along with a few pinks and even bright reds.

I'm glad your Cindy Heart offspring are looking nice and healthy. Next summer give them the warmest, sunniest location you can find and you might get a first flower before the end of summer. I think seedlings grow best in 2 gallon pots when they are making the final burst of growth before blooming but you could try other sizes, too, once you are able to put them outdoors next summer.

Charlie

Cool Charlie!  How many fascinating foliage varieties will they be? 

Kristen, awesome leaves, I had one that did that and returned to normal as usual :(

Thanks, I can't wait.  Im excited.  Charlie, I also have some more seeds for you.  Just got a few off of my Baja Breeze pollinated by Simple Pleasures.  I was going to hold off sending you them as I have some more pods going right now.  Another on Cindy's Heart by Voodoo Magic, don't know if it is going to make it or not, and another by saffron, too soon to tell.  But I have one on Voodoo that is doing great by Cajun blue and also one going the other way.  Also on Cajun blue I have a Saffron, Space Oddity, and itself... and on Saffron I have a Tiger's Eye due any minute, and I just tried a Cindy's Heart (I have been getting more and more pollen off of her the more she blooms, which is weekly) Last but not least, I have Space Oddity on a Tahitian Taui, Simple Pleasures, and Albo... as you can see, I will need your green house and conditions along with skilz to pull this off!

Way to go, Kristen! You're in the full swing of it now. Making seeds is fun and addictive! I like the crosses you are going for and will enjoy growing them out. With the cold weather it is safer to wait until a warming trend since seeds can freeze, too. To keep them fresh place dry seeds in air tight container in the crisper or somewhere in fridge until ready to send them. By dry I mean not wet with seedpod moisture but air dried for a few hours up to a day outside the pod. If placed in storage wet they will almost certainly be killed by mold.

Charlie

Charlie, the seed pod on my CH has started to turn color. Is this what it should look like as it starts to mature?
It is 10 weeks old now.
(http://i54.tinypic.com/15vk08.jpg)

Yes, it's ripening up fast now. It should crack open any time. The seeds usually won't spill out at first crack but you should check it twice a day or more until it opens. It's best to leave it on the plant as long as possible but you can take it off early if you save some of the stem (peduncle) and then place the stem in water until the seeds turn black inside.

Charlie

Hi Charlie
 I was wondering about when would you have some Cindy's Heart's ready to sell again I'v bean watching for that one since last summer. I'd like to kinda get an idea when to expect them. 

My first CH seed germinated today. Hopefully the other 2 will germinate in the next day or two.

Cindy's Heart plants won't be ready until mid to late summer.

Nice going, Doll! Seeds can vary in the time they take to germinate so don't worry. 100 percent is very rare anyway but with fresh seeds you might get it!

Charlie

My CH seedling isn't showing any red in the leaves. I guess some do and some don't. ???
(http://i53.tinypic.com/14oc9p4.jpg)

Hey Doll, the seedling is healthy looking. Won't be long before you can drop that whole pot into a larger pot and put it outside in the full sun. It will really take off then and hopefully give you a first flower before next winter. I suggest a 2 gallon size pot for growing them to maturity. Smaller pots are possible but the tall seedlings tend to tip over or blow over in the wind in smaller pots and grow slower than when in the 2 gallon pots. Do you know the other parent in this case?

Kristen's red leaves will almost certainly disappear as the seedlings grow. Would be nice to get that variation but I've never seen it continue to maturity.

Charlie

I had 2 seed pods on CH. One was pollinated with Voodoo Magic and one with Cile Tinney. But I didn't label them and one seed pod didn't make it. So I don't know which one this one is.

My seedlings are bizarre.  The tallest one is great, but I may have burnt it with fertilizer.  I cut the leaf off, and it looks good now.  Below is a photo of the leaf that's funny.  I also have it next to the smallest CH seedling I have, they are pod mates.  It started wilting under the big grow lights.  The photo shows the damage.  I cut the worst leave off, and put it in the fish tank under the fluorescent lights, and it bounced right back.  It hasn't grown much at all.... The other one is already brown wood!  

On the other hand.  My mother plant, Cindy's Heart, my GEM!!!  I acting funny.  She has been showing signs of spider mite damage to the leaves here and there.  (I have been using Kontos for several months now, and still have mites)  however, CH does not have any.  I have checked and checked, none.  A few weeks ago, I sprayed her down with water because I thought I saw some.  But nothing now.  So today, her leaves felt soft and a bit limp / weak.  Not wilted, she has moist soil.  I watered on Tuesday...  Any thoughts?

Oh, and I sprayed her with Supernova mixture today after I discovered the tender leaves and now they are stiffer, back to a more normal feel... what do you suppose that was?

Kristen, you may need to increase your dose of Kontos a little bit to compensate for the plants being indoors and not drinking as much as outside in full sun.  Kontos worked really, really well for me until I brought my plants inside.  I don't really have a good sunny window, so although I was watering with 1/8 tsp/gal of Kontos with every watering indoors, it wasn't enough and the mite population exploded.  I just increased it a couple of weeks ago to 1/4 tsp/gallon and I *think* it's starting to work again.

That is a great idea Jordan.  I didn't think of that.  Some of my plants are drinking fast and drying out quick, but some are in larger pots like CH... I will give it a try.  But what happened yesterday with the soft leaves was weird!  Don't you think?

Yeah that is strange... wilt disease maybe?  Hope not!  Or did the leaves perk back up again?  If CH hasn't been getting much sun, and you moved her to a location where she all of a sudden is getting a lot more sun, this is no surprise.

So here's what I think... We have been having not a lot of sun lately due to the constant snow falls!  The other day it was sunny and beautiful out.  She was wilty during the day, but not at night, for 2 days in a row.  I did however finally find two monster sized mites on her yesterday!  UGH!!!  I am feeding today, as tuesday is my feeding day, and will up to 1/4 per gallon... I will spray her first! 

It's neat to hear you guys figuring out the problems together. Especially since your ideas are good ones!

I've seen hibiscus go soft or wilty when suddenly exposed to conditions they are not used to. For instance, sudden exposure to cold can do it. This could be a cold night draft in a window or moving plants from greenhouse to greenhouse when it is very cold. The difference between this type of wilt and disease is that the plants recover from this kind in a few hours or within a day. Same kind of thing for exposure to higher light than they are used to. For instance, seedlings that germinate in direct sun can take strong sun but seedlings germinated in low light and grown in low light cannot be moved into high light without being slowly conditioned to it.

I sure hope increasing the Kontos dose during winter will do the trick. Keep us informed please. Kontos can also be sprayed on the plants but that defeats the purpose of having a miticide that can be applied safely via watering. Please don't spray any pesticide, even organic ones, without mask and gloves and for complete results a disposable Tyvek coverall being worn. The coverall isn't needed for organic pesticides but for others it is safest to use one. Masks ARE needed for organic pesticides because you will breath tiny droplets of oil, soap, or whatever into your lungs if you don't use one. I have to get on that soapbox from time to time, and hope people listen and take precautions.

Charlie

Thanks Charlie, It is very easy to not use a mask... I admit, I don't.  I also never spray indoors.  I haven't sprayed anything since I brought them inside for the winter, other then the supernova I made up last week.  (is it OK to spray with that regularly?) I think the wilt may be the sudden sunny day since we haven't gotten sun in like a month for more then an hour.  She also stopped blooming, so I think it is safe to say that is the culprit! 

On the subject of "monster mites", we have to be a little cautious here. There are predatory mites that feed on spider mites and those you don't want to kill because they are the very best defense against spider mites.

The most common spider mites found on hibiscus are the 2 spotted mite. These have 2 big spots on their back, one on each side. The spots can be seen under a magnifier. That makes it easy to ID them. Unfortunately, the Southern red spider mite is also a common pest of hibiscus and it is not quite as easy to ID. These mites are a dark reddish orange color. The main difference between them and one predatory mite that feeds on them is size - the predatory mite is approx twice as large and has longer legs so when you said "monster" it made me think of them. Below are photos of both the Southern red spider mite and the 2 Spotted mite.

Bottom line, if you see the 2 spots or the almost solid dark red color it is likely a pest mite. If there is new leaf damage it is likely that pest mites are present but predators are likely then, too. If it is bigger than normal, and has no spots, and moves quickly over leaves and branches, it is likely to be a predatory mite. Pest mites tend to remain on the bottom of leaves or hang onto the spider webs they make. They are active but not as much as predators.

The world of pests and predatory insects is a strange one when looked at through magnification. I've seen critters under magnification that are scarier looking than any dinosaur and thanked goodness that they are so tiny!

Charlie

Kristen, it has got to be the sun that's causing them to wilt.  Mine do that too, quite reliably in fact, if they haven't had any direct sunlight for awhile and are then surprised with a nice, sunny day.


Double ew for the mite pictures Charlie!

So I think I blasted off some "good" mites!  Damn!!  I saw the little buggers with my naked eye, and they were crawling fast.  On the other hand, there was new mite damage to the leaves, so they were after them... oh well. 

Cindy's Heart is one of those varieties whose colors intensify in the sun and heat.

CH just beginning to open before the sun came out from under the clouds early this morning.
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A couple hours later after being in the hot sun. And it remained this color all day. It's hard to believe that it is the same bloom. However I have never had CH last more than 1 day in my conditions.
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Looks lovely Doll, I certainly think that would do well here in Vietnam, that Space Oddity and Rosiland, I am on the waiting list for all 3, real sun lovers.

Doll, it is funny how it is for you.  Mine is the same from open to close no matter what season.  And it sometimes stays open for 4-5 days for me.

Although this winter, I had a de-foliation happen with her.  She was so full of big beautiful leaves and one after another they yellowed and fell off.  I think it was just their time, because there were no bugs.  Now I have bare stalks with a bunch of 1/2-3" stems going up the stalks.  And believe it or not, I actually have buds forming on those!

Kristen, that is a shame your CH lost all of its leaves. I remember how full it looked whenever you would post pictures. Spray some supernova on the branches everyday and you will see lots of new growth. My bloom from April 14th looks closer to yours. I can't remember what the weather was like on that day though.
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I have another bloom opening today so will see how it looks.
David, CH will be perfect for you. It doesn't just tolerate the heat, it thrives on it.

Doll, luckily not all her leaves, just the ones in the middle... she went on a diet.  But now it has about 15 small branches where those leaves were.  Maybe it was just their time to go, and unfortunately they were one after another... it will fill out, and cant wait to see what the new growth does.

Looks like the thrips might have gotten to this one today. They seem to really like Cindy's Heart.
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This is a pic of my CH bush showing how full it has become. I bought this last summer as a 6 inch plant and have done no pruning or pinching at all to it. It is growing in a 2 gallon pot.
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Another shot of today's bloom. I measured it and it was 9 inches.
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Charlie...will there be any cindys heart available anytime soon????....thanks Lynette

Yes, there will be a few Cindy's Heart available as grafted plants in 4 inch pots in the near future and again in mid-summer. It's nice to see how well it is performing in different gardens around the country.

We are working on a big update for the store that will show up in about a week.


Charlie

The blooms on Cindy's Heart are very tough. Not only can they hold up to full sun in 100 degree heat, but they hold up in windy conditions as well. Here is a pic of one today after being exposed to 25-30 mph winds all day. Normally I would have picked it and brought it inside but I pollinated it with Voodoo Queen. I'm always trying to get some seed pods from CH. I have one seed pod developing now which is CH X White Wings.

My Cindy's Heart is back in business.  She looks good.  Here is a bloom and bush update.

Doll, that would be an interesting cross, particularly if you get a combination of the best features of both.

Beautiful bush, Kristen. I think you are getting the hang of this!

Charlie

Thanks Charlie.  I pruned her early this summer because she lost all her leaves and looked too skinny.  She branched out beautifully too.  And I made sure to saturate her with Supernova every morning and since, she has made an amazing comeback.  Not flowering as much as she used to, but she now has to get used to indoor living again.

Just adding some nice shots from my CH this past season...

Farmer D

Beautiful pics farmerd.
Especially love the last 2 pics.

An update on my CH seedlings.  One will bloom either tomorrow or the next day.  All my seedlings are at my parents house for the winter.  Their house has lots of light and they keep it warmer then my house. 

Some more Cindy's Heart pics - today's twins were probably the nicest I've had yet. 

Also worth noting that August and September have been hot here with decent humidity and CH was one of my top two growers during this stretch (Bridal Path the other).  So it is true that this cv does it's best in hot weather.  I'd say this plant is close to tripling in size since spring.

Farmer D

Great pics really!  :) Is Cindy's Heart only for grafting?

Here's a pic of my Cindy's Heart bushes. Two are in 2 gallon pots and one is planted in the ground.

Nice, John. It will be interesting to see how the in-ground one does over the winter in Houston.

Diana, I see that you asked about Cindy's Heart and several other varieties. It is hard to give an absolute answer to the rooting or grafting question. Most varieties of hibiscus will root although the percentage can be as low as 1 percent success. The result depends partly on the genetics of the variety, but also depends very much on the health of the mother stock, the techniques used to do the rooting, and the conditions that the cuttings are placed in before they root.

So, everyone has to experiment and see what works best for them. The benefit of grafting is that every variety can be grafted successfully. However, all the same factors apply - health of wood, techniques used, and conditions after grafting.

Propagating most hibiscus is a challenge, and success will vary from very good to very bad each time you try to clone a plant.

Charlie

This year I decided to plant all three CH in the ground.