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Title: Cross suggestions and why Post by: helixturnhelix on July 27, 2009, 09:33:49 PM It seems like many of us do not really have the space to grow out many seedlings to hopefully get that new and exciting perfect hybrid. But I also think that we have some pretty good ideas as far as which crosses could have some good results. I was thinking that we could suggest some crosses to charlie and since he has the space to perform these crosses, if he likes the crosses we suggest he can do it. Then hopefully in 1-3 years we can see how those crosses turned out, without giving up too much of our space. Of course you have to explain why you think the cross would be a good one :)
The crosses I would really like to see are... Black Dragon x Dragons Heart (I mentioned it in another post, but wanted to keep it all in one place) I think this cross could yield some dark flowers because both these cvs have the common ancestor, Dragons Breath, and both are a dark red color. It would make sense that their dark gene is from the same source, so if that gene is the same in both, there should be a larger than normal percentage of offspring that are dark in color. Gator Pride x Denim Revolution Looking at the Gator Pride offspring, it looks like red protein pigments are being suppressed or silenced. If crossed with Denim Revolution the newest blue, with a red center, it might be possible for these genes in gator pride to silence the red pigment in Denim and produce a solid blue flower. I think the most significant evidence that this can occur is with the Blue Ballerina x Gator pride cross which yielded a pixie blue flower. Byron Metts x Ghost Just to see if the gene making these cvs all white is the same one :D These are the ideas I have for now, i will think of more in the near future! -Chris Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on July 28, 2009, 03:00:46 PM Hi Chris,
I like your idea. It's not always easy to achieve a cross that comes to mind, but I appreciate the ideas and will make the attempt whenever possible. For me the biggest problem is having a seed setter in a location where the conditions are good for setting seed. Right now that is only in my office windows which get a lot of indirect light at this time of year. Black Dragon x Dragon's Heart. I have not yet tried to set seed on Dragon's Heart but it is time to do so. Black Dragon never set seeds for me but usually has plenty of pollen. I will bring a Dragon's Heart into the office and wait for it to bloom and most likely there will be pollen of Black Dragon available that day or the next bloom day. It's a good cross idea, so we shall see what happens. I see what you mean about the Blue Ballerina and Gator Pride Cross. I will definitely give the Gator x Blue Denim a try at my earliest opportunity. I think I have plants of both that are in bloom now. Byron Metts x Ghost. I have an overly large pot of Byron Metts and can move it to the office to try this. Ghost should bloom again before too long. Keep the ideas coming! I'll let you know how it goes. For the near future I have ample space for seedlings but greenhouses always seem to run out of space eventually. Charlie Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: helixturnhelix on July 28, 2009, 03:26:15 PM Hmm thats too bad about Black Dragon, hopefully dragons heart does set seed.
If nightfire sets seed it might be nice to try a cross between Dragons Heart x Nightfire. Because it seems the nightfire offspring flowers last only a day, and dragons heart lasts several, it might be worth it to see if you could get some blooms from nightfire offspring that last a long time by crossing it to varieties that have long lasting blooms like Dragons Heart or Cindy's Heart. I think you mentioned High Drama also has long lasting blooms. I look forward to updates about whether or not these crosses are possible ;D Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Nievesgirl on July 28, 2009, 05:15:06 PM Hmm thats too bad about Black Dragon, hopefully dragons heart does set seed. If nightfire sets seed it might be nice to try a cross between Dragons Heart x Nightfire. Because it seems the nightfire offspring flowers last only a day, and dragons heart lasts several, it might be worth it to see if you could get some blooms from nightfire offspring that last a long time by crossing it to varieties that have long lasting blooms like Dragons Heart or Cindy's Heart. I think you mentioned High Drama also has long lasting blooms. I look forward to updates about whether or not these crosses are possible ;D Well Nightfire x dragon's heart is one of my ideas also. Nigtfire seems to set seeds like I said I knocked the pod off , but the stem ( where the pod was held ) is still on the plant. I see new buds growing so I will try again later and let you know how it goes. Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on July 30, 2009, 06:03:21 AM OK, here's an update.
Dragon's Heart x Black Dragon. Pollinated. This will prove whether DH sets seeds although a failure in mid summer will not prove that it doesn't. Nightfire and Dragon's Breath. This can potentially work both ways since I have set seeds on both these varieties. I now have budded up plants of both in the hybridizing area and will cross them as the opportunity comes along. I can also find pollen on other plants of these cvs to use if the 2 plants are not blooming at the same time. Byron Metts x Ghost. Ghost was cut back for wood awhile ago so there may not be any blooms available for a few weeks. Thanks for the suggestions. It will be interesting to see what we get! Charlie Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: helixturnhelix on July 30, 2009, 08:40:49 AM Ghost is being propagated, I'm sure alot of people on the forum will be happy about that :)
It will be good to know whether or not Dragon's Heart sets seed, I have high hopes for that one! It looks like mine is starting to bud up already, which I am pretty excited about. Hopefully they I can see the bloom before I have to stress my hibs out moving them :( Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Nievesgirl on July 30, 2009, 08:57:01 AM Please take picture of Dragon's heart ! I am dying to see more picture of it mine will not be budding for a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: helixturnhelix on July 30, 2009, 09:19:25 AM I will!, it might be a while, they are really small :(
Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on July 31, 2009, 09:54:36 AM Update:
Nightfire x Dragons Breath. I made the cross but am not sure if the pollen was fresh enough. We shall see! Charlie Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: helixturnhelix on July 31, 2009, 09:20:55 PM Nightfires color with Dragon's breath's white swirling pattern, size, and bloom duration! /crossfingers
Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Darkhorse on July 31, 2009, 09:33:50 PM Ok here's one...
Black Dragon x Belle du Jour Both are large, interesting flowers in somewhat of the same color family. Hoping for Belle's bush and reliability with a really cool, HUGE flower! Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on August 02, 2009, 08:48:50 PM I thought I might have some with that cross but looking in my seedling photo file I find Belle crossed with lots of others but no with Black Dragon. It will need to be Belle x Black Dragon but that's fine and something I can do this week most likely. I like it. So far the Belle seedlings have been quite nice. I'll attach 2 of them to this - Belle x Saffron 7-8 inches and Belle x Berried Treasure 8-9 inches. These are in the pink color range but another with Simple Pleasures was more like Simple Pleasures in color. Maybe Black Dragon will bring some dark colors to the offspring...
Charlie Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on August 02, 2009, 08:51:46 PM Update:
Another Dragons Heart bloomed today on the same plant that was crossed with Black Dragon a few days ago. That flower has now closed and fallen off and a pod does seem to be developing. Today's flower was crossed with Dragons Breath which will make for a nice comparison with the Black Dragon fathered seedlings assuming we get seeds from both. Charlie Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: helixturnhelix on August 02, 2009, 11:03:33 PM Hi Charlie thank you for posting those belle cross pictures! All of my seeds from this year all have belle as a parent, and since I have limited space, its good to know that her offspring are pretty nice. Have another other pics?
I am crossing my fingers for BD x DH, I will try the cross myself when they bloom. I am out of space, but if I able get seeds and you haven't I will mail them to you :) Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: helixturnhelix on August 02, 2009, 11:07:00 PM So perhaps I will take some of my seedlings from that cross with me. I am hopeful for rainbow sherbet x belle. Do you have any of that cross?
Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on August 03, 2009, 07:08:13 AM Hi Chris,
Yes, I agree that the seedlings of Belle are all pretty nice. No doubt some will be propagated in larger numbers. Here are a few more photos of first blooms of Belle crosses. Charlie Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: helixturnhelix on August 03, 2009, 08:08:28 AM Hi Charlie,
Thanks for sharing these pictures. I am hopeful that some of mine will come out like this :P The last seedling looks like a pink saffron, which I personally find pretty appealing, it looks like a bigger version of First Love. Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Darkhorse on August 03, 2009, 11:02:41 AM The two Belle seedlings look nice. I've seen the Belle x Saffron photo before. I also plan on making that cross BD x Belle when I get a Black Dragon and both are blooming.
Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: helixturnhelix on August 06, 2009, 07:59:34 PM Charlie,
Have you gotten around to doing any BD x LL or BD x Belle crosses? I think those could have some really nice results. Great bushes, and huge flowers with interesting colors is what I am thinking will happen. :D Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Nievesgirl on September 02, 2009, 08:09:15 AM I just collected more seeds from a cross I did. I did his cross because these where the only flowers blooming that day. I wonder if gator pride will make these seeds soft like it's other offspring.
Rocket's red glare X gator pride 14 seeds :D Charlie I am no sure if you tried this cross ? Would you want to plant the seeds ?? I also still have the gator pride cross seeds. It looks like I have more seeds on the way. Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on September 02, 2009, 08:45:31 AM Hi Chris,
I've not had any luck getting pods on Black Dragon, but Living Legend and Belle du Jour both set seeds so I can do it that way. I just moved a Black Dragon to my hybridizing area so it is more likely I can get them blooming at the same time. It has been awfully hot here lately - you moved at the right time! When it cools a bit I should be able to get pods more readily. Charlie Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on September 02, 2009, 08:49:28 AM Hi Kerry,
I would be happy to plant those seeds. All my results with Gator Pride so far have been small flowers, not surprising of course. A cross with Rockets Red Glare could give us larger flowers with who knows what interesting colors. It's definitely worth a try. The self cross seeds would be interesting, too, since I don't think it has ever been done. That's one of the advantages of coming to something new - you don't know that it shouldn't work so you tried it and it did! If you want me to grow them you can mail them to our post office box in Bonsall. That's PO Box 1311, Bonsall, CA 92003. Thanks! Charlie Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Nievesgirl on September 02, 2009, 12:05:27 PM Yes I figured the size of RRG may help the seedlings to be bigger but I guess we will have to wait until you grow them :)
I will send them out this week just email me so I know you received them. Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Nievesgirl on October 02, 2009, 03:34:06 PM Hi Kerry, I would be happy to plant those seeds. All my results with Gator Pride so far have been small flowers, not surprising of course. A cross with Rockets Red Glare could give us larger flowers with who knows what interesting colors. It's definitely worth a try. The self cross seeds would be interesting, too, since I don't think it has ever been done. That's one of the advantages of coming to something new - you don't know that it shouldn't work so you tried it and it did! If you want me to grow them you can mail them to our post office box in Bonsall. That's PO Box 1311, Bonsall, CA 92003. Thanks! Charlie I just sent the seeds out today :D Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on October 03, 2009, 02:06:45 PM OK, thanks! I'll get them planted and we shall see what we shall see.........
Charlie Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Nievesgirl on March 29, 2010, 11:33:26 AM Here are some suggestions for Big bloom theory lol
Moonstruck X Byron Metts or vice versa for any of the crosses Maybe some nice big browns or purples will come out since byron Metts has Old Spot, Nat Shepard,Devil's Gold , and Miss Liberty in its pedigree. Moonstruck already is doubled up on both purple/blue and brown genes because of Rainbow Christie. Acadian Spring X Moonstruck same reason as above cross but since 'Acadian Spring' has unknown parents you can see what comes out. James Bond X Bryon Metts same as above lol Bridal Path X Moonstruck ( not sure if Chris mention this cross to you before ) Bridal Path X byron Metts Bridal Path X Giganormous Black Dragon X moonstruck Black Dragon X Byron Metts Black Dragon X Robin hood Black dragon X James Bond Burnt Saffron X James bond Burnt Saffron X moonstruck Crinkle in time X It's a wonderful life Crinkle in Time X bryon metts Crinkle in Time X robin Hood It's a Wonderful Life X Black dragon Its's a wonderful life X burnt Saffron It's A wonderful Life X Rockin Robin It's a wonderful life x red satin Red Satin X Monnstruck Red satin X Black Dragon Red Satin X Rockin robin Rockin' Robin X moonstruck Rockin R X James Bond Rockin R X bryon Metts Stolen Kiss X Moon Struck Stolen Kiss X rockin robin Stolen Kiss X robin hood White lightening X moonstuck Strawberry Cream X moonstruck Both with Robin hood, and rockin robin :D I think this might be interesting since both CV's are double up on the genes Giganormous X moonstruck Giganormous X Crinkle in time Giganormous X James bond Giganormous X robin hood Giganormous X rockin robin Giganormous X Matador Fantasy Charm x Moonstruck Fantasy Charm X robin hood Fantasy Charm X rockin robin Fantasy Charm X james Bond Fantasy Charm X crinkle in time Fantasy Charm X bridal Path I have more crosses but just think about the ones listed hehehehe Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Nievesgirl on March 29, 2010, 11:40:48 AM a few more lol
Belle Du Jour X black dragon Belle Du Jour X matador Belle Du Jour X burnt Saffron Belle Du Jour X rockin Robin Belle Du Jour X red satin Belle Du Jour X robin hood Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: helixturnhelix on March 29, 2010, 03:49:56 PM Wow those are alot of crosses, you should get on making them Kerry!
My philosophy is a bit different. I think it would be cool to make homogenous crosses of varieties that can be used to produce dark coloration or lighten colors up. Perhaps one gives you ruffling or large flower size. Then you could just mix and match these varieties so that you have a higher probability of getting offspring that you want. I think that its a long way off and maybe not entirely practical since there are many loci and factors that contribute to gene expression. I do have to say that I have been looking at how Orchids are bred (since they have been hybridizing them for decades) and it seems that many varieties are well documented to produce offspring with specific trait. So much so that cross a particular red with a specific small yellow will give you small orange varieties. I think that hibiscus hybridizing is a bit young, but I think that in time you will be able to perform very predictable crosses and get that bush and flower you want much like they do with orchids. Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Nievesgirl on March 29, 2010, 05:00:57 PM Wow those are alot of crosses, you should get on making them Kerry! If I had all of the varieties above I would LOL. I will have to suggest crosses for Charlie for the cv's I dont have yet or wont buy because of no space left. Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on March 31, 2010, 11:09:26 AM This subject is certainly worth exploring. Unfortunately for me, I have too much to do today but promise to return to it soon.
One of the first difficulties one comes to with strategizing is that a lot of the cvs that are desirable to work with do not set seeds readily if at all. Many times both cvs that one wants to cross don't set seeds well so you have to work around that by using intermediaries. Back later. Charlie Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on April 01, 2010, 06:19:35 AM Here are some suggestions for Big bloom theory lol Moonstruck X Byron Metts or vice versa for any of the crosses This one will work crossed either way since both set seed. I'm about to move a budded up 2 gallon Byron Metts to the office where it is handy for hybridizing. It's always a choice - cut the wood to make more plants or make seeds and enjoy the blooms, can't do both simultaneously. [/color] Maybe some nice big browns or purples will come out since byron Metts has Old Spot, Nat Shepard,Devil's Gold , and Miss Liberty in its pedigree. Moonstruck already is doubled up on both purple/blue and brown genes because of Rainbow Christie. Good research, Kerry. The heavy texture of BMetts flowers would be a benefit to the lighter substance of Moonstruck blooms and prevent them from reflexing when they first open. Acadian Spring X Moonstruck same reason as above cross but since 'Acadian Spring' has unknown parents you can see what comes out. I've been meaning to get an Acadian Spring plant over here to see if it sets seeds. As long as it has good pollen we can get some on a Moonstruck. My current Moonstruck plant is bloomed out and has pods developing but there will be another chance sooner or later. James Bond X Bryon Metts same as above lol Harder with a new one like James Bond that is sold out and has a waiting list. All the wood for the next year will get cut to make new plants but eventually........ Bridal Path X Moonstruck ( not sure if Chris mention this cross to you before ) Bridal Path X byron Metts Bridal Path X Giganormous Bridal Path has not yet set seeds for me. I have some crosses of it using its pollen on Saffron and some others. I don't have it crossed with any of these yet, and the last cross will probably not be possible since neither has set seed for me before. I am cautious of saying "never" when it comes to hibiscus because they seem to love to surprise us. Just the right conditions on just the right day and maybe seeds are possible. Black Dragon X moonstruck Black Dragon X Byron Metts Black Dragon X Robin hood Black dragon X James Bond Same problem with Black Dragon - reluctant to set seeds (not yet for me) but it does make lots of good pollen. That means the first 2 above are possible using pollen, and the last 2 are unknown as to whether they will set seeds. Black Dragon does seem to help with size, a new one named 'Raging Bull' that is Saffron x Black Dragon is quite large at up to 9 inches. Burnt Saffron X James bond Burnt Saffron X moonstruck Yes, I want to explore Burnt Saffron more. I have it back crossed with Saffron and a seedling or 2 growing now but by the time my plants are big enough to bud up they are either cut for more wood or shipped out. If it turns out to be a seed setter I also want to back cross it with Black Dragon, though I fear for the bush in the seedlings. Crinkle in time X It's a wonderful life Crinkle in Time X bryon metts Crinkle in Time X robin Hood I've only tried to set seeds with Byron Metts out of the above, so maybe for the rest of the crosses. Crinkle is so new that I won't have many blooms for a year or so for the reasons given above. It's a Wonderful Life X Black dragon Its's a wonderful life X burnt Saffron It's A wonderful Life X Rockin Robin It's a wonderful life x red satin I agree, this should be the year to explore It's A Wonderful Life. I just need to set aside an 8 inch pot for the purpose and bring it over when budded up. Red Satin X Monnstruck Red satin X Black Dragon Red Satin X Rockin robin If it sets seeds, might as well see what comes from this big bold flower. Rockin' Robin X moonstruck Rockin R X James Bond Rockin R X bryon Metts Not yet tested, but Rockin' Robin is another good candidate for later when more plants are available. Stolen Kiss X Moon Struck Stolen Kiss X rockin robin Stolen Kiss X robin hood Stolen Kiss does set seeds and I'm testing its potential with quite a few crosses this year. I've got it with Moonstruck, Belle du Jour, Saffron, and several others. I am hoping to get some decent color in this big flower while preserving it's ability to root well. White lightening X moonstuck Strawberry Cream X moonstruck Both with Robin hood, and rockin robin :D I think this might be interesting since both CV's are double up on the genes I've not had any luck getting seeds on Strawberry Cream but the pollen works. I have finally gotten a 2 gallon White Lightning budded up and ready to hybridize. We'll see if it can set seeds during the next couple of months. I'm pretty sure that I have seedlings of the 2nd cross above growing now but with Moonstruck as the seed parent. Giganormous X moonstruck Giganormous X Crinkle in time Giganormous X James bond Giganormous X robin hood Giganormous X rockin robin Giganormous X Matador Until I grafted some a couple weeks ago the only plants of Giganormous I had were in huge pots that I don't want to move. I will keep one or two of the grafted ones to try hybridizing with. Even if it does not seed seed I could get some pollen on Moonstruck at least and perhaps on Stolen Kiss (where's the color?) and whatever else is big and handy when the pollen is available. This reminds me that Chris has some ideas going about freezing pollen for later use. If that turns out to be practical it would sure increase the possibilities. Fantasy Charm x Moonstruck Fantasy Charm X robin hood Fantasy Charm X rockin robin Fantasy Charm X james Bond Fantasy Charm X crinkle in time Fantasy Charm X bridal Path Alas, no seeds from Fantasy Charm. I used in fairly often in earlier years with only the Rosalind x Fantasy Charm offspring First Lady still being around. With many new cvs to try her pollen on it may be worth giving it another go. The bush is slow growing and does not branch that readily which are drawbacks for me but even so the flower is huge, well formed, and gorgeous. BTW, one of the Fantasy Charm plants I sold the San Diego Zoo was over 6 feet tall when I saw it last. That puts the flowers as visible mostly for birds but even so it was impressive to see one that tall. With a case like the last one suggested, Fantasy Charm x Bridal Path, where neither parent sets seed, I like to pick another cv that does set seed such as Belle du Jour and use the pollen of both the non-seed setters on Belle. Then we can cross the offspring of those crosses and thus bring some of the genes of each into play with each other even though we cannot cross them directly. I have more crosses but just think about the ones listed hehehehe Nice job, Kerry. It's always great to kick around ideas and stimulate thinking on this. Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on April 01, 2010, 06:38:19 AM Wow those are alot of crosses, you should get on making them Kerry! My philosophy is a bit different. I think it would be cool to make homogenous crosses of varieties that can be used to produce dark coloration or lighten colors up. Perhaps one gives you ruffling or large flower size. Then you could just mix and match these varieties so that you have a higher probability of getting offspring that you want. I think that its a long way off and maybe not entirely practical since there are many loci and factors that contribute to gene expression. I do have to say that I have been looking at how Orchids are bred (since they have been hybridizing them for decades) and it seems that many varieties are well documented to produce offspring with specific trait. So much so that cross a particular red with a specific small yellow will give you small orange varieties. I think that hibiscus hybridizing is a bit young, but I think that in time you will be able to perform very predictable crosses and get that bush and flower you want much like they do with orchids. It would really help if we had better data recorded for the crosses made in the past. There is a start to it with the nomenclatures that exist but there are many gaps in it and its doubtful if the info is entirely accurate either. Still, it's much better than nothing. Chris, what you report about orchids is interesting. I have to question whether it is applicable to hibiscus though. I say this because of the huge variation we see in offspring when working with hibiscus. What we might be able to say is that if you plant 100 seeds of a given cross a few (like 1-5) of them will show the expected result. I don't think that we can normally count on the seeds in any one pod (average is 10 seeds) giving the expected result but with enough seeds perhaps so. No one has access to records like this since the non-keepers are disposed of without records being kept or made publicly available. Someone was marketing software for hybridizers a few years ago. If hybridizers got in the habit of using such software to keep records of all their results and if these databases could be combined among hybridizers, then we could figure out more than we have up til now. I don't see this happening any time soon, however. For those of you new to the world of hybridizing hibiscus, it helps to keep in mind that the photos of "successes" that are shown online represent only a tiny fraction of the plants grown from seed by hybridizers. For every "good" flower you see dozens of other hybridized plants made flowers that were not worth showing and never are shown in the online forums. Virtually all hybridizers go through periods that are discouraging as they see first flower after first flower that disappoint before once again they find that special beauty worth showing the world. It's a real thrill to find your first "keeper" but it can take a lot of work and time before it happens. Or it could happen first time out and then be followed by a long dry spell before the next one. In any case, hybridizing is a labor of love without a doubt. Charlie Charlie Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Nievesgirl on April 03, 2010, 11:24:43 AM Haha Charlie thanks for reading my suggestions. I already knew you probably wont get a chance to cross some of your newer cv's I was just throwing the idea out there :)
My idea of hybridizing has to do with my back ground with breeding animals lol , Like with my cats I would not breed them just randomly So I suspect the same with my hibiscus :P I been just looking at hibiscus pedigrees as I would if it was a dog or cat and its been so far very helpful. Time will tell if any of my ideas come out good , I just can't wait to see the seedling I sent you Charlie ! I think my last cross took so I should be sending you Simple pleasure x blue ballerina cross ( this was a cross I did just because of what was blooming lol ) Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Darkhorse on July 13, 2010, 04:15:10 PM My Sunkissed Blonde opened today and got me thinking... this would be a nice cross with Saffron. Both are larger flowers with nice form. Saffron has a great bush and so does SKB (albeit slow growing). My SKB had one main stem earlier this year, and I pruned it... it is now growing around 12 new branches out of that one main stem. Anyway, both flowers have white eyes. Would be interesting to see what could be gotten from this cross.
Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: helixturnhelix on July 13, 2010, 04:20:21 PM I like it! Im glad my SKB isnt the only slow grower... its pretty much the same size but with five branches. I sent Charlie some SKB x Burnished Gold, so when those bloom it will be interesting to see what they look like!
Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Doll on July 21, 2010, 05:54:26 AM With Whisper Soft I see you sometimes use some old garden varieties as a parent. I was thinking Blue Ballerina crossed with the old garden variety Psyche might be interesting. Psyche holds up to the heat extremely well. Both have small flowers so might make another nice houseplant cultivar.
Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on July 21, 2010, 11:30:56 AM Yes, this approach has not been explored as much as it should be. The standard line you will hear from hibiscus people is that going back to garden variety types results in too much of a setback to the flower. It's often true that the flowers become smaller, less well formed, and more simply colored but it is not always true. Take a look at Blue President sometime - this is a cross of the common red President with Renaissance Blue. That flower is already quite nice even in this first generation cross back on an old garden variety.
In any case the benefit to the bush and its ability to be propagated that comes from such crosses makes doing them attractive to me. Doll, if you can make that cross (have both varieties) you should do it! I think it will only work by taking pollen of Psyche and putting it on Blue Ballerina but you can try it both ways to see. Charlie Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: helixturnhelix on July 21, 2010, 09:22:42 PM Hey Doll
Another thing you could try is using some of the CVs Charlie has already crossed to standard garden varieties and cross those to other exotics. In theory you should get more fancy blooms, but hopefully retain the easy of growing of those garden varieties. Right now I am using First Love (Gwen Mary x President) to do that. Charlie mentioned blue president as another one that is like this Young at Heart and Whisper Soft are a few more. Song Sung Blue is an example of using one of these crossed to another exotic to produce a robust plant with interesting exotic blooms. Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Darkhorse on July 22, 2010, 01:01:56 PM Rereading kerry's crosses with moonstruck inspired me... what about saffron x moonstruck? both are large-flowered varieties with good bushes and growth. another interesting aspect of this cross is that both cvs are less favored by spider mites. maybe resistance could be passed on to the offspring. would be a good trait to have to save hours of washing w hort oil! oh and both set seed so the cross could be done both ways. i had a moonstruck last year but it didnt make it, so charlie this will be a cross for you to do unless i stumble upon another moonstruck. :)
Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Pachrian on September 02, 2010, 01:41:16 PM Quote: "Alas, no seeds from Fantasy Charm. I used in fairly often in earlier years with only the Rosalind x Fantasy Charm offspring First Lady still being around. With many new cvs to try her pollen on it may be worth giving it another go. The bush is slow growing and does not branch that readily which are drawbacks for me but even so the flower is huge, well formed, and gorgeous. BTW, one of the Fantasy Charm plants I sold the San Diego Zoo was over 6 feet tall when I saw it last. That puts the flowers as visible mostly for birds but even so it was impressive to see one that tall.
With a case like the last one suggested, Fantasy Charm x Bridal Path, where neither parent sets seed, I like to pick another cv that does set seed such as Belle du Jour and use the pollen of both the non-seed setters on Belle. Then we can cross the offspring of those crosses and thus bring some of the genes of each into play with each other even though we cannot cross them directly. Charlie" Charlie, I have a nice, big seed pod growing on Fantasy Charm. Is it likely to be empty or the seeds not viable, or is the fact that a pod is growing a good sign? I used Fallen Hero pollen on 8/20 on it, because it was the only one available. Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on September 02, 2010, 07:15:14 PM Uli,
There is one listing for a cross with Fantasy Charm as the mother (seed setter). Sometimes hybridizers make mistakes in their records but it is also possible that this 1 registered variety is the exception to the experience of many who have tried. It's probably an empty pod but don't give up on it - you never know until you see what's inside! Chris, crossing Moonstruck and Saffron is something I have done, but only 2 plants have grown from the seed to first flower. One was Saffron x Moonstruck and the other Moonstruck x Saffron. In fact, one of the seedlings posted today was from the latter cross. It is a large, about 8 inch, solid shocking pink color. The other one was a very large, very wild flower that was not useable. Photos of both are below. I feel sure that we have not seen even a tiny fraction of the possible offspring of this cross nor explored the other qualities like pest resistance. Charlie Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Darkhorse on November 20, 2010, 09:07:52 PM I put some Sunkissed Blonde pollen on two Saffron blooms today; first time my Saffron has bloomed and twins! (no pictures... too dark) Now that the plants are inside, I can actually try to hybridzie. This will be my first real attempt. I hope I get at least one seed pod!
Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: davidwood on November 21, 2010, 04:54:02 AM I put some Sunkissed Blonde pollen on two Saffron blooms today; first time my Saffron has bloomed and twins! (no pictures... too dark) Now that the plants are inside, I can actually try to hybridzie. This will be my first real attempt. I hope I get at least one seed pod! Jordan,I am the same as you and will be happy with just one pod. I have managed to get hold of some seeds but there wont be the thrill of doing it all myself. I will keep plodding away and I am sure I will strike lucky sometime.Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Darkhorse on November 21, 2010, 07:48:26 PM I know, David. I want one of my own seedlings. Just one. I'll probably send the rest of the seeds to Charlie. No space here for growing out seedlings.
The heat will make it hard for you. How long have you been crossing w/ no luck? Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Darkhorse on December 04, 2010, 02:10:06 PM An update on the Sunkissed Blonde x Saffron... both pods seem to have taken. Two weeks have gone by and they're still bright green and getting bigger. These will be my first seeds, assuming they make it!
Title: Re: Cross suggestions and why Post by: Charlie on December 05, 2010, 09:48:46 AM That's a very good sign, Jordan. At this stage they are pretty much bullet proof unless they freeze, and will not come off without a deliberate effort being made to get them off. At this time of year it can take 10 weeks or longer to ripen compared to 6 weeks in summer. If any ever reach 12 weeks just go ahead and harvest them and open them up. They will either be empty or have black ripe seeds by 12 weeks.
Charlie |