Kontos and Safari

[roadrunner]

Charlie is there any recommended time interval between treating plants with Safari and Kontos? My plan was basically to treat the potted plants I place about in the landscape with Safari since spider mites have not been much of a problem in the past with natural preditors about and the ease of washing the plants off frequently outside as opposed to being in a greenhouse.  So these plants were treated with granular Safari anywhere from 30 to 45 days ago.  Unfortunately it has become very obvious that I have a major mite problem outside this year.  It appears to be those microscopic cyclamen mites, not spider mites, and the problem has absolutely exploded.  Also one other Kontos question.  Should newly moved plants from the 4" pots to something larger be allowed to become somewhat established before treating with Kontos?  The first Kontos treatment in the greenhouse about 10 days ago is showing no impact on the mite damage so far.  I wonder if I should make the treatments more frequent to build up the Kontos in the plants more quickly?  Sorry for all the questions.  Currently I have about 20 really weakended struggling plants and 10 more newly infected. 

HELP!!

dave

[Darkhorse]

Dave,

   I've used Kontos for the past couple of year with great success.  It will take time for an obvious impact on your mite population to take place.  I water 1x a week with Kontos.  For their first dose, I give plants a 1/4 tsp/gallon of Kontos.  The week after, I drop it to 1/8 teaspoon/gal.  Every subsequent watering I've had success with 1/8 tsp/gallon as well.  You have to keep up with it and water every week with Kontos.  Also, for regular waterings, water so that you don't have any extra water flowing out of the pot.  This will wash the Kontos out of the soil.  It takes time to figure out how much water is enough, but not too much.

[roadrunner]

Thanks Jordan.  I used Kontos last year and the container only lasted 6 months, very disappointing at its price, and me being a not too financially well off retiree.  I did have a relatively mite free summer thru winter for the first time.  I'll increase the frequency of application.  The current dose is 1/4 tsp/gallon.  I'm up to approximately 100 plants and have to mix anything I apply in 1 gal containers so it's rather time consuming.  All my hibs containers are on saucers so anything that runs out gets drawn back up into the rootball.  I thought spider mites were a real pain but these microscopic cyclamen mites are much worse.  Have no idea how I got them, never had any til maybe year and a half ago.

dave

[davidwood]

Thanks Jordan.  I used Kontos last year and the container only lasted 6 months, very disappointing at its price, and me being a not too financially well off retiree.  I did have a relatively mite free summer thru winter for the first time.  I'll increase the frequency of application.  The current dose is 1/4 tsp/gallon.  I'm up to approximately 100 plants and have to mix anything I apply in 1 gal containers so it's rather time consuming.  All my hibs containers are on saucers so anything that runs out gets drawn back up into the rootball.  I thought spider mites were a real pain but these microscopic cyclamen mites are much worse.  Have no idea how I got them, never had any til maybe year and a half ago.

dave

Dave increasing the dose is going to be even more expensive and I dont think there is a need. Apart from the first dose its recommended you use 1/8th of a teaspoon per gallon per week, I have followed this religiously for 2 years now and its been a 100% success.
What I do is put 14 teaspoons of water in a cup and add 2 teaspoons of Kontos, this will make 16gallons, then when I water and feed on a Sunday just add a tea spoon from the cup, no more time consuming than normal. I think the secret with Kontos is sticking to it, I once tried to miss a week and the little sods where soon back.

[Charlie]

Jordan and David pretty much hit it on the head - Kontos works best if used with every watering. When Cindy and I skip one at the house we see mites start a come-back.

I wouldn't worry about using it on 4 inch plants, newly transplanted plants, or combining with Safari. No problems with any of that as far as I've observed.

Charlie

[roadrunner]

Charlie applying Kontos with every watering isn't practical or affordable for me.  First the recommendation was about once a month, then every 7 to 10 days, now with every watering. I have a large number of plants and most are watered daily since it's gotten hot.  The plants are in saucers so the Kontos doesn't wash away.  Does it just break down quickly while in the plant's vascular system?  Last summer I got to schedule of about once every 10 days on the Kontos which I think you or Cindy recommended in an email and that worked fine.  Also I haven't seen any spider mites, I am dealing with something much smaller and I think Cindy said probably cyclamen mites.  I see evidence of sap on the undersides of leaves and little tiny pale areas.  Then rapidly follows the typical leaf appearance.  No spider mites visible or webs either.  Those I had last year before Kontos, none this year.  I can think of two or three plants that were symptomatically different.  Maybe that's when this infestation got a foot hold.   I never saw one mite on my garden variety hibiscus in over 10 years.  The only pest I had was aphids.  I'm just about to the point where this hobby is just more trouble and expensive than it is worth and I started growing these exotic hybrids in 2004.  Those first 3 plants never had any problems with mites til about 3 or 4 years ago.  Many of my new plants that haven't bloomed yet and looked great 2 weeks ago are now looking awful.  I wonder where I got these little monsters.  I do have a few plants that were hit really hard showing some signs of recovery with several applications of Safer's Soap, SuperNova and Houseplant Formula combo spray every other day, a fungicide for good measure, fertilizing with Houseplant Formula and SuperNova, and of course the Kontos.  Time will tell I guess.

dave

[davidwood]

Charlie and Jordan I don't water every watering, my god I could never afford that as I need to water at least once a day sometimes twice, I just water the whole garden with Kontos once a week on a Sunday and I have had 100% success, I use at a rate of 1/8th of a teaspoon per gallon.

[roadrunner]

David that type of Kontos schedule worked great for spider mites for me last year too, but this year's mite problem appears to be the tougher to get rid of cyclamen mites.  I'm reasonably sure I had both types last year, but mostly spider mites.  I had a few plants that never seemed to get going.  That is only a semi-educated guess since I haven't had a professional diagnosis done.  Cyclamen mites are much tougher to eliminate from what I've been reading about them.  I'd never heard of them til Cindy mentioned them to me.  Most of what I've been reading about them is from reports before Kontos was available and they are apparently very resistant to many miticides.  Two treatments mentioned were insecticidal soaps and hot baths similar to Cindy's technique.  Horticultural oil maybe too but it's too hot for using it now.  It got up to 100 here today.  Maybe I'll be able to get them under control again after a few more Kontos applications combined with insecticidal soap applications, but I'm sticking with the 1/4 tsp dose for Kontos based on what I'm apparently dealing with.  My magnifying glass isn't strong enough to see the little monsters but their damage is very obvious and much of the attack appears to be significant damage the newly emerging leaves which are stunted, chlorotic appearing, and inward curled as they emerge. They never develop normally.  Two of my better plants last year were Cosmic Gold and Torch Song.  Both grew vigorously and had numerous large blooms.  This year both plants are severely stunted and the new growth is as I mentioned above. Neither plant is root bound either.  Incredibly frustrating and about 30 out of close to 100 hibs are significantly affected.  Maybe I should just stick to my roses with their blackspot, mildew, aphids, and thrips. Oh, almost forgot about the cottony cushion scale or whatever it's called.   LOL

dave

[Charlie]

David, I wrote my reply too quickly last night. Watering for us in the house is once per week so that is why I said Kontos with every watering. For sure you don't want to use Kontos every time with every day watering.

Dave, I wish you could get a "for sure" diagnosis. Cyclamen and broad mites, the 2 common microscopic plant pests, are killed with specific miticides like Avid, available online for $110 per pint. Avid also controls thrips very well. Unlike Kontos, Avid only needs to be used when you have a problem and a bottle is likely to last for years. We wouldn't be here having this conversation if an experienced commercial grower had not told me about microscopic mites and Avid when they were ruining my very first commercial crop of a fancy type of begonia almost 20 years ago.

On the subject of diagnosis, did this problem develop during the period after you ran out of Kontos and get bad before you started using it again?

Charlie

[roadrunner]

Charlie the answer is yes to both questions, I had the problem before I started Kontos last August and it started exploding again within the last few weeks.  Kontos does seem to be effective though because the bulk of the collection had never looked better thru the winter.  There were about 6 plants that were still stunted and sickly and I assumed that was from the previous spider mite attack and it's after effects.   I ran out of Kontos in January but didn't have any apparent mite issues and delayed ordering any Kontos primarily because of its cost.    I finally had to break down and order it and did the first treatment a week ago.  I think I'll continue the insecticidal soap spraying 2 or 3 times a week on the worst effected plants at a minimum as well as doing Cindy's recommended SuperNova/Wakeup Spray combo spray every other day on the worst effected plants.  A few of the worst looking plants are showing signs of recovery but it's too early to tell if this is another false start on that.  All the plants including the larger ones in 10" containers out in the landscape will be put back on weekly treatments of Kontos starting today.  The problem is worse in the greenhouse than out in the landscape.  Thanks for the suggestion of Avid but I think it is much more toxic than something I'd feel comfortable using, especially with 3 dogs.  I'll keep you posted on how it's going and may add a few more pics on this thread.

Sorry for my usual ramble.  Being concise is not one of my strong suits.

dave

[Darkhorse]

Dave,

   With time, the Kontos should work wonders.  It will take anywhere from two weeks to a month for the plants to start showing signs of recovery.

   Something else that helps is plain old water spraying.  Turn the plant on its side and spray it with your hose.  I'm sure you've probably done this, but combining hose-end spraying with Kontos has worked best for me in avoiding mites.  It's less tedious than the bath or even horticultural oil, and pretty inexpensive. 

  Treating mites becomes a big ol' pain when you have tons of plants. 

[roadrunner]

This is my second go around with Kontos. I'm about to mix up about 8 gals of it. That's 8 one gal containers, which is what I have to work with. Yesterday I gave all the larger hibs placed in the landscape a nice hard wash off.  They'll get their first dose of Kontos for the season when they've dried out enough to water again.  It's too hot for using hort oil now anyway but I'll continue to augment the Kontos with Safer's Insecticidal soap.  Plants also get the benefit of some extra potassium when it breaks down.  Spider mites are a pain, these microscopic mites are a MAJOR PAIN.  I have an 8 plant order with Charlie pending shipment.  Now I wonder if I should cancel it.

dave

[davidwood]

I will today for the first time start to use Kontos as a Foliar spray rather than a drench and I will let you know how I get on. I have never had any problems with the drench method, quite the opposite its been very successful, I am doing it for financial reasons, its about 4 times cheaper spraying.

One of the problems with Kontos is the Label, not only do you need a magnifying glass to read it you need to have been to Oxbridge to understand it. Interestingly in my quest to try and understand the dosage I came across this link http://www.ballpublishing.com/growertalks/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=19093  and see the label has changed and they are now saying Kontos will kill Thrips.

[helixturnhelix]

Hi David,

Kontos will not work as a spray because it mechanism of action is via ingestion not external absorption.  Only actively feeding mites will die from Kontos and spraying will not work for this reason.  If you are interested in a spray I have had very good results managing mites using horticultural oil. 

Good luck!     

[davidwood]

I wished now I had waited a few minuets and read your post, just sprayed the whole garden haha.

[davidwood]

Hi David,

Kontos will not work as a spray because it mechanism of action is via ingestion not external absorption.  Only actively feeding mites will die from Kontos and spraying will not work for this reason.  If you are interested in a spray I have had very good results managing mites using horticultural oil. 

Good luck!     

Chris can you take a look at this link. http://www.ohp.com/Newsletter/Spring11/kontos_back.php

Does the bit where it says ---  Growers can spray Kontos and know that it is phloem- active so the active ingredient moves both up-and-down in the plant ---- sort of argue what you say about it not being so good.
I am not disputing your knowledge as I truly do not understand, in fact I haven’t got a clue but I think its miss-leading when they say ‘in’ the plant.

[helixturnhelix]

Hmmm it looks like if you spray it, it is still being absorbed by the plant, and the insects then ingest it when they feed.  So the mechanism is the same, but the plant can absorb it both ways.  So konrad sprayed on an insect won't kill it, but if sprayed on a plant where it is absorbed, then the insect ingests it when it feeds, the insect will die.

That's what it reads to me anyways.

[davidwood]

Thing is Chris even if it does work I have another problem here in Nha Trang, I was reading yesterday that Foliar feeding and spraying is not much use if the temperature is above 25C, apparently the actual bits of the leaf [I cant remember the actual words what they are called] need to open to absorb the moisture and at above 25c they wont, well at 4am this morning [coldest time] it was 27C.