Nite Runner

[Kathleen]

Does anybody out there grow a hibiscus called "Nite Runner"?  I am on my third one and I think this one is dying too.  I have had it about two months now and it just seems to be dying a slow, but steady death.  A leaf here and there will start to look droopy and then it will slowly lose color and the veins will stay dark.  Eventually, the whole leaf dies and falls off.  There are still leaves at the top of the plant, but the stems and the base of the little bush are now bare.  I have been very careful about the amount of water I give.  This little plant has received nothing but HVH fertilizer with each watering 1tsp per gallon. I don't know what I could possibly be doing wrong.  I have Super Thrive.  Should I use that on it?

You've heard of people with a brown thumb?  Well I have a black thumb.  Plants come to my house to die....yet I keep buying more. You'd think I'd get wise and give up.

HELP!!!!  Please 
Kathleen

[Kyle]

Kathleen,
Without any of us being there or seeing photos  its hard to say what the problem is.   I can only speculate.   You did a good job of describing what's going on and noticing it within months of receiving it.
It sounds to me based in my own wrong doing is that you are watering to often or watering to frequently when your hibiscus doesn't need it.
Let me start by saying it is absolutely critical to get the watering just right the first few months of arrival.

Its do or die just from watering. 
It only takes of few times of watering when you shouldn't have and your new arrival is history, doomed, finished, no coming back.
This is what i tell myself all the time.  Kyle, DO NOT WATER YOUR HIBISCUS WHEN THEY DON'T NEED IT! 
Before I water my hibiscus I  look, feel, lift to determine if it needs water.   
LOOK at the color of the top soil.   Wait for the soil to turn lighter in color before watering.   Charlie's soil will turn light brown as it dries.   Don't water if the soil looks dark.
FEEL the top of soil with your finger.    If your finger feels wet or you feel wet soil DO NOT WATER!  Its OK to poke your finger in the soil to see how wet it is.  Wash hands though.
Lift up the pot if you can or tilt the pot  to see if it's heavy or light.   Get a feel how heavy the pot is after you just watered it.   I wait for the pots to feel lite before i water mine.
When your receive a new arrival 4" or 6" they usually drop a few leaves and sometimes the bushes haven't grown in yet. They are not going to take up a lot of water because the roots are still small and there isn't much of a bush to absorb the water from the soil.    It takes time for new leaves grow and it isn't until there are at least 2-3 long branches before you need to water them so frequently.   
During the first few months I usually only water my new  arrivals weekly or sometimes even longer even when hot.   It can be 80-90℉ in my porch and they still only want watered weekly because there are only a few leaves.

Don't water your hibiscus just for the heck of it.   If 1 hibiscus needs watered, didn't water all of them because its convenient .  I wish it was so easy to water all my hibiscus at the same time.   I wish i could feed my hibiscus all the same way.   It doesn't work that way for me and it never will.   
Every hibiscus is different and so is the grower.    Weather and climate are always changing so you need to adapt to what's gong on and quickly.  I can go from watering 2 times a day  to watering weekly real quick.   Charlies soil holds a lot of water at 1st so be aware of that.  Let air get to the roots.   Houseplants are even fussier about watering and less frequent.

As summer progresses and your hibiscus grow big and tall it will want so much water you'll have a tough time watering 2-3 times a day.   It takes time for that to happen because they need to grow.

If you over water your little baby 1 or 2 times when you shouldn't have and set it out in the  direct sun, its going to wilt and act like it's being strangled.   Over fertilized, overwatered, and cooking in the hot direct sun could be really bad for them.
These new hibiscus arrivals are so delicate to being watered to often and flooded that you can easily slow kill them as soon as you get them.
Sometimes in the middle of summer I open the box and wait days before watering because the soil is still soaking wet.

When it comes to watering I look, feel, and lift before i dare give them water.   It's better to have the soil a little dry than always to wet.    Wet feet = bud drop and yellow leaves.   Wet feet is really really really bad.

My final words are don't  be trigger happy when it comes to watering.  Make your plants want to be watered.   
Just be carefull not to let them wilt from lack of water or don't let the leaves get soft before watering.

As far as nutrients, that sounds all good.   A little more or less should be OK as well.   
Superthrive is nothing special won't help much.
The manufacture wont tell me what's in Superthrive  so they suck.
Check the date of expiration and toss it out if outdated.
The new formula has kelp in it but you only a little bit.

I think your better off with SuperNova or the Kelp Extract.  You only need a little with your regular feeding program of Special Blend and Booster

I don't have Nite Runner and I prefer to keep it that way.
I heard the bush is not that good.    If you keep having problems with it move on with something easier to grow.   
Try some of the Saffron offspring and maybe some of the Tried and True will be easier to grow.
However, anything you water to often or flood is doomed.

Kyle   

[Cindy]

Kathleen, sorry to hear about your problems with Night Runner. I'm curious though - where did you get these? We offered only 3 larger plants this year, all in 1 gallon pots. As Kyle said, Night Runner is one of the more difficult bushes to grow. It has a spectacular flower but the bush is weak and floppy. However, the ones we have in our greenhouse have been long lived despite the weakness of the stems, the stock plants being about 5 years old presently.

It sounds like you are doing the right things, although it would be helpful to know what size pot it is in, whether you transplanted it to a larger pot when you got it and what kind of soil was used, whether it is inside or out, your temperature range day and night, and how much direct sun it gets. Also you did not mention the leaf color and whether the leaves turn yellow before they get droopy. If so, there could be a mite problem.

Kyles suggestion of selecting some of the excellent Tried and True plants we offer is also a good idea.

Cindy

[farmer d]

Hi Kathleen,

Don't give up! Growing exotic hibiscus is not easy and the learning curve takes a couple years to come down. What it really important is to be very patient. Kyle is totally right about not watering unless necessary. Here are a few guidelines that I use when growing hibiscus in pots.

If you can provide photos that is very helpful. Most likely what you are describing has to do with what is going on under the soil.

1. The smaller the plant and less leaves it has the less water it needs. If your plants are in very small pots that get a lot of sun or heat then you will have to water more often as those sizes dry out much more quickly. If your plant is not doing well and has few leaves or very small leaves you need to water with a light touch. Without leaves the plant cannot transpire the water out of the leaves through evaporation. This leads to the roots not pulling much water out of the soil and then the soil becomes over saturated. Perfect recipe for root rot.

Don't be afraid to take gently and carefully take your plant out of it's pot to examine the roots. A healthy root system consists of lots of bright white roots with several larger beige dominant roots. The white roots take up the nutrients, the larger beige roots are the main water intake for the plant.  In the ground those dominant roots can go 3-4 feet away from the plant until they get a good moisture source. If your plant is root bound you need to untangle and pot up to a larger size. If you see few white roots and/or can actually see rotting roots your plant has root rot. Cut off all rotted roots (sanitize your shears after every cut to not spread the disease). Also sanitize your pot, shake out all soil from the roots and use new fresh soil. The current soil is contaminated and will just reinfect the plant again.

2. The type of soil you have is also very important. It should be very well draining with either ample amounts of perlite or pumice stone. The HVH soil is a great way to make sure you are getting a soil with the correct properties. I find many of the common soils sold at garden centers are way too full of mulches and composted materials that become very heavy and lose what air they had when wet. I avoid them at all times. Don't be afraid to dig with one finger down a bit in your soil to see what is going on. Deep down it might be totally water logged while the top is bone dry. Looking and using a water meter are not much of a help - trust me.  You got to find out what is happening at the bottom of the roots.

3. When a plant is sick you have to water them sparingly at most. Think of the main trunk as a small battery that has most of the stored energy of the plant in it. Don't water unless the soil is bone dry. Let the plant's roots sense the ample amount of air in the soil and it will begin to grow new roots using the stored energy in the main trunk. Once this happens then new leaves will appear at the nodes. Don't increase the amount you water though - match the increase with the increase in the size of the new leaves growing. Also it is key to place the plant in a warm and sunny spot. That warmth is critical to giving the plant much needed energy so it can start to rebound.

4. Patience is key - remember anything you see happening now is a result from inputs from 2-3 weeks ago. That is how long effects take to show on exotic hibiscus. I recommend keeping a log or journal and track what you do to your plants. Then you will see what had a positive impact and what did not. Every location has it's own micro-climate so there is no one way to grow them perfectly. You must be your own detective to get it right. It takes a lot of time and dedication so make sure you have both of those at the ready. If exotic hibiscus are your passion it just comes naturally.

5. Superthrive and other generic ferts are not good for exotic hibiscus. The HVH Special Blend is the mix of right ingredients at the right levels.  I add Supernova for additional potassium. I also recommend spraying Supernova on the leaves (especially the undersides) to keep the leaves clean and more pest free. Plus the plant will soak up a little bit more of it too.

6. Exotic hibiscus need heat and humidity. Temps between 70-90 are ideal - if direct sunlight is involved then anything over 93 starts to become too intense for them.  Any night lows under 50 and they start to slow down and produce smaller blooms with less colors. Anything close to freezing means bring them inside or under some sort of protective covering.

Let us know what questions you have from these responses.  Don't give up - this is a chance to improve your own gardening skill set.  My weakness used to be being too impatient and I kept on watering and over feeding my plants when they were not doing good.  They all died from that.  Now I have learned to be patient, very observant and you eventually start to speak their language. They give you subtle signs that when several are put together tell you what they need.

A photo of my hibiscus in the front yard - their potential is enormous.

Farmer D

[Kathleen]

Thanks to every one for all the help.  I thought I had the watering issue under control, but I guess I was wrong.  I took the little plant out of the pot to try to give the roots some air .  It has a good root system, is not root bound and the roots appear to still be alive.  When I scratch the trunk just above the soil line there is still green.  When I scratch just an inch higher, it is brown and very obviously dead.  In fact, the branch actually feels spongy.  The soil feels light and not compacted.  What I did notice when I took it out of pot is that the top felt dry and ready to be watered, but about 3/4 of an inch down the soil was still moist and toward the bottom it was still pretty wet.  I thought you supposed to water when the top soil was dry and water until a little water comes out the bottom???  Is this why my plants keep dying?   I am going to get a meter so I can check them deeper down in the pot.

Do you think there is any way I can still save this little plant?  As beautiful as the Nite Runner flower is, I don't think I will buy another one.  Can't afford to keep throwing my money away.

Growing these guys really is hard.  Is it easier if you put them in the ground?

Kathleen

[farmer d]

Kathleen - if there is only a few inches of live wood left on the main trunk your Night Runner is a goner. Don't waste any more time or money on it at this point. For a smaller plant to still be alive it needs to have most if not all of the main trunk in good shape. It got root rot and that did it in. You don't have to see actual rotting roots for them to have severe root rot. The signs the plant has it is branch tip die back, pale leaves that start at the top of the plant and spread downwards and they keep on dropping as the die back continues.

Night Runner is also a temperamental plant - I have one growing in ground and it shows trouble signs before a HVH plant does. Plus the blooms always face downwards and the plant has thin branching. For a beginner this is not a good plant to learn from as it is not too forgiving. Best way to build up your confidence and learn with some exotic hibiscus that can take some missteps are the Tried & True CVs that Cindy recommended. Some I have grown that have proven to be super vigorous and easy to grow are:

Aphrodite
Bright Hope
Chariots of Fire
Cosmic Energy
Dapple Dandy
Exuberance
Hot Southern Nights
Jolie
Luminescence
Palm Springs
Rainbow Sherbet
Valentine's Day
Venus Rising - super vigorous
Vin Electrique
White Hot
Wild Grape

These plants will make getting going in the right direction much easier on you and your wallet. Plus HVH plants are not grafted so you don't have to worry about pruning unwanted growth from the root stock.  I bet on your Night Runner the only part left still alive for now is just the root stock itself.

Speaking of growing in ground - where do you live if you don't mind me asking? If you can do it the difference is dramatic and the results are startling.

Farmer D

[Kathleen]

I appreciate the time you are all taking to try to help me out.  I don't mind at all letting you know, I live in Clearwater, Florida (Zone 10).  Very hot and intense summer sun and very, very wet summers.  I have a small yard and large oak trees cover almost all of it.  The only spot I have that gets full sun is a location that gets sun in the hottest part of the afternoon in the summer.  The young plants just fry there.

Right now, I have:

Ephemeral ( Doing very well, big beautiful plant, but not blooms)
Lace Agate
Storm Front
Bayou Rose
Valentine's Day
Slap Stick
Living Legend
Antique Rose
Chianti Clasico
Hugs and kisses, from Home Depot (It is dying too)

I'm waiting to get another Magnum Opus.  The one I had for over a year and thought was going to do well died too.  If I try planting them in the ground, how big should the be first?

Kathleen

[farmer d]

Hi Kathleen,

OK - Clearwater Florida. Florida - that right there is the most important piece of information to move forward with. Florida is a challenging place to grow exotic hibiscus or many plants for that matter. I am well versed in the challenges one faces there as I know several growers there over the past 4-5 years. So here are some tips to help you out with getting better results:

1. Florida is basically a tropical climate which for your exotic hibiscus means that for long stretches of the year the direct sunlight is too intense for your plants. Here in So California once the temperature exceeds 93F it will start to negatively effect the plants. Yellow leaves start to appear, bud drop increases and the blooms get smaller. Also the plants will start to grow much faster as their metabolism speeds up causing them to grow much more vertically which can lead to more lanky looking plants. So if you have trees that can provide dappled shade that would be a big help for them. Hibiscus love heat, I have seen them doing great in 120F + greenhouses - but the key is no direct sunlight at those temps.

2. You have plenty of humidity there so that is good but actually the humidity combined with the daily rains becomes a problem. In Florida you will see lots of dry rot, especially on anything you prune or cut along with snow scale and mildew. The excessive rains for long stretches of the year can really make it a challenge on several fronts. Trying to fertilize your plants is tough as the rains will constantly wash out the ferts in your pots. Secondly root rot is always close at hand with so much precipitation. Very very well draining soil is crucial for them to handle the high amounts of water. Lots of rain also means less time outside with your plants which makes it a challenge to properly look after them.

3. The pests. Florida seems like the pest capital of the world. The hotter it gets the more pests show up. The weaker your plants become and then when your plants become weak even more pests take advantage of a weakened plant. All I can say is from May - Oct when it is the hot months it is a constant fight with the pests there. The humid and hot climate attracts many different varieties. I would educate yourself on what insecticides and miticides to use and understand that after 3 weekly sprayings you need to switch to a different one that has a different main ingredient to avoid the pests building immunity (resistance) to what you are spraying. Also the daily rains wash away what you spray so that too is a challenge.

4. Your best months for your plants and blooms is Nov - May.  Basically winter and spring are the times of year you can make the most progress and enjoy your plants to the fullest.  If you are planning on trying to grow some of your plants in ground keep in mind that if you get night freezes during winter there you should make sure your plants get covered or are under something that provides them protection.

One poster here to the forum that lives in South Florida and has been growing them for 5+ years is Gil Friedman. I don't believe he has posted here in a while but he is active on the Facebook page of the International Hibiscus Society. Florida has many exotic hibiscus growers and multiple chapters of the American Hibiscus Society. There might even be one in your area that can offer you the chance to connect with some other local growers and see how they manage growing there. It no doubt can be done and if you can connect with a couple of fellow Floridians who also grow them I bet you can get down that learning curve much faster.

Best of Luck!

Farmer D

[Kathleen]

Thank you so much, Farmer D.  You've given me a lot of good information.  There is actually a Hibiscus Club that meets in my area.  I've gone to a couple of meetings, but never joined because of the cost and frankly, I felt like I got more information from this forum.   I think, after the first of the year, I will reconsider.  If it saves me a couple of plants, it will more than make up for the cost....however, I'll never give up the forum.

Kathleen

[Kyle]

Kathleen,
Watering to often and under watering can both result in wilting.   For all I know you could be severely under watering the hibiscus and I'm over here telling you not to water so often.     Pest could be the downfall.
I speculate on watering to often based on the issues you been posting for the last year or more.
If i recall in the past your hibiscus did well over spring and summer and the problems began in the fall and by winter they are history.

Now that your using good organic soil, just be aware it holds a lot of water. After transplanting it holds a ton of water!      I don't care if your in FL or Maine if you water when your not suppose it could lead to problems quickly.   This new information you gave us about problems happening not long after you receive them and some of the problems you had in the past seem to point in the direction  of watering.

The soil being dryer up top and still wet towards the bottom sounds correct.  That's a good observation and this is how you learn.   For the most part the soil at the bottom is always going to be wetter than the top.
Gravity works that way.   If soil at the bottom gets as dry as the top, you could be practicing under watering.

Just imagine how wet the bottom soil would be if you watered your hibiscus when the top soil felt wet.
This is why i look at the soil, put my finger in it, and lift or tilt the pot  to see how heavy it is to determine if I should water or not.   I usually check the weather forecast before I water as well.  It's not good to have wet soil,  then in a few hours it pours overnight.  
It can be tricky to determine when it's time to water but it's something that you need to learn on your own.
To this day I still have problems deciding when to water.   I hope one day it clicks for you and you have the most beautiful hibiscus.   Take advantage of growing in FL.   It's such and ideal place to grow tropical plants.
During the hot summer months you may need to shade your hibiscus more or bring them into a covered area to get them out of the all day blazing sun.   The worst pest are the pest you have in which you don't know you have.
Like Darren was saying FL is bad for pest.  FL is like the pest capitol of USA.  
Kyle


 

[Kathleen]

Happy New Year to all!  Just wanted to give a quick update. First of all...Nite Runner has died   I'm moving on though and happy to report that all my remaining plants are doing very well.  In Fact, since the weather is cooler they are all blooming   Most are in 6" pots now and it has made it easier for me to carry them inside on the few nights that temperatures fall below 50.  So far this winter we haven't had any frost or freeze in my area.  And in pots I can also move them to where they get all day sun now that the sun isn't so intense.  (Maybe why they are finally blooming???)

Now the question is, when should I prune to encourage branching?

Kathleen