Giant Seedling

[helixturnhelix]

Today I just checked a batch of seeds of the same cross planted on 2/21/12, and what a surprise.  One of the seedlings is noticeably larger and more vigorous than the others, well larger than about every hibiscus seedling I have ever germinated.  The cotyledon are HUGE, about 2-3 times the size of a normal seedling and they are incompletely bifurcated.  The length of these cotyledon is 7/8 of an inch, amazing since these are all podmates and germinated on the same day!  Has anyone observed anything like this before?  

[davidwood]

Today I just checked a batch of seeds of the same cross planted on 2/21/12, and what a surprise.  One of the seedlings is noticeably larger and more vigorous than the others, well larger than about every hibiscus seedling I have ever germinated.  The cotyledon are HUGE, about 2-3 times the size of a normal seedling and they are incompletely bifurcated.  The length of these cotyledon is 7/8 of an inch, amazing since these are all podmates and germinated on the same day!  Has anyone observed anything like this before?  

Well I havent seen anything like it before but then I am just starting, it would be nice to think that everything will be big [maybe an 11 inch bloom] but I don't suppose it works like that.

Well all my seeds have germinated, I was expecting about 50 or 60% so its a bit of a suprise to get 100%.
Before when I have tried to germinate seeds I have had problems because the mix was drying to quick, so I was constantly misting and they would get to wet, its such a fine line to get it right so I ended up growing them in a large Tupperware box[shown below and I have 3 of them], this way I only spray twice a day but so far so good. I am a little bit concerned about air circulation but I will see how it goes.

[helixturnhelix]

Looks like you figured it out!  Those seedlings look healthy, its exciting when they start to look more like hibiscus plants.  Normally my seedlings have looked about the size of yours, after emerging from the seed.  This Gigantor is something else, must have sucked up all the nutrients from the mother plant when a seed!  It is already sprouting its first set of adult leaves 3 days after emerging, for me it usually takes about a week for me to see those new leaflets emerge.  I am really interested in tracking how this one grows.   

[davidwood]

 What is the Giant a x off, it will be interesting to follow its progress and see if it is something very special.
Cris when you say ''must have sucked up all the nutrients from the mother plant when a seed'' is interesting, how long will these nutrients last?, or in other words when would I start to concider feeding, at the moment I just have a drop of Superthrive in my misting bottle.

[Charlie]

It's not uncommon to see some seedlings grow faster and others slower but this case looks pretty extreme. No guarantee that rapid early growth will translate into a more vigorous variety but it's definitely worth watching.

David, your little seedlings look so delicate but what you will find is that they are strong beyond their size. Seedlings can take a lot of sun and heat and just keep on growing. The biggest dangers once they have germinated is from being eaten by mice or grasshoppers or what have you or being destroyed by mold or fungus if they are kept somewhere with too high humidity. They won't need that cover much longer and it will be safer to take it off so the humidity does not cause problems. In cold climate the enclosure preserves warmth that the seedlings need but in your case it doesn't do much good. I never use a cover in my current germinating area and am glad not to have to fiddle with a cover all the time. However that area stays 85 degrees 24/7 and is reasonably humid so there is no need for one.

Good luck!

Charlie

[helixturnhelix]

I am thinking Giant may be some sort of seed that was not destroyed in the composting process.  It is producing some heart shaped adult leaves now, reminds me of some sort of Ipomea species.  It will be interesting to see how this progresses. 

David the cross for these is Infinity x Blue Book, a really special cross that Kerry entrusted to me, I hope they do well.  I think we can expect some interesting colors and patterns from these seedlings. 

Charlie,

It is interesting how the "runts" I had have quickly caught up to the faster growers.  I am really enjoying observing what other traits you see passed on besides bloom and bush type.  For example, I have some T. Prince seedlings, all of which have dark red wood.  My Muffin Man seedlings are all this bright spring green with leaves just like Muffin man.  There is another seedling Antique Treasure x Heartbreak Hotel which has oval leaves and many axillary branches, which grow out at a 45 degree angle.  I feel like Gregor Mendel and his pea plants,   Seedlings are definitely fun.     

[Charlie]

Yes, I agree that seedlings are fun to watch. However, you have to keep in mind that many of the odd traits that show up in the juvenile plants are not seen later in plants propagated from the seedling wood nor in the seedling plant itself after it matures. Ah well, it's still quite interesting to make the observations.

Charlie

[helixturnhelix]

It is really too bad that most of these interesting traits disappear.  I am hoping that the red wood and leaf stems on some of these stick around.  I am a little disappointed that out of the 100 or so seedlings I have growing this year, none showed juvenile leaves like those of the F Foliage.  Only two showed bronze leaves,  which will likely disappear as you have stated.  I am looking forward to getting some seeds from Arabian Princess this year, so I can have at least a few which have the FF leaves. 

I don't know if you have seen this yourself with seedlings from "Allure"  but I have been reading about several seedlings which have Allure as a parent being scented.  Scent is recessive and both parents need to have the gene for it to be expressed, but its pretty interesting that Allure has produced several seedlings that are scented, especially since it is not scented itself.   

[Charlie]

H. arnottianus, a single flowered species, is the original source of scent in hibiscus, However, in more recent times scent has been noticed in double flowers much more often than single. Kona, an older Hawaiian double flowered variety, is the first flower that I ever noticed had scent. Perhaps the scent in Allure came from her double parent Candy Manners.

My experience hybridizing with Allure is that interesting flowers come from her but the bushes are not what I want in future hibiscus. I try to resist hybridizing with flowers like White Diamonds, to name just one, because the goal of hybridizing is ultimately to improve the species. It's easy to tell yourself that a certain cross may just get lucky and the bad bush traits disappear but it rarely happens that way.

Fascinating Foliage plants all came from Creme de Cacao so far, but I am now able to observe some seedlings that came from FF varieties, mostly Pinot Noir though I have seeds from Arabian Princess not yet planted. The PN seedlings are showing about the same proportion of FF as did CCacao - about half the seedlings showing unusual leaves. Whether those leaves will survive into maturity I don't yet know but will keep an eye on them.

Charlie

[helixturnhelix]

It is too bad that White Diamonds (also carries scent surprisingly) passes its sprawling growth habit to its offspring, because it is really excellent for producing some really fantastically colored offspring.  It is probably one that needs to be crossed to a good grower like Cacao or P' purple first, then using the F1 from that cross, alas there are many of those!  At least in the case of Allure, Wild grape and Wild Allure seem to be nice overall CVs.  Their hybridizing potential seems to be really high in my eyes, with both Allure and BTBW genes to access in those!   

I dunno if we can really say we are advancing the species of hibiscus, I suppose we are in the eyes of homo sapiens.  Our hibiscus are such a mismatch of different species that they are truly a human creation.  I have been reading a bit about orchid hybridizing and since there is individual variation within species, there is line breeding individuals of the same species to improve color and form.  This is also viewed as improving the species, since it is the same species, but again do that long enough and you are going to get individuals which are adapted for cultivation and may be quite different from their wild counterparts.  This is how species diverge, perhaps we should rename them to Hibiscus rosa-sapiensis.  Fascinating to say the least!

I am looking forward to what you find with the FF seedlings, sounds like I should be able to get some using Arabian princess this year.  Any observations from your FF x FF crosses?  With about 50% of the seedlings showing this trait, it really sounds like a dominant phenotype.  The only way to know for sure is to cross two FF together, if you get about 75% FF and 25% normal from that cross, there is a very good chance it is dominant.  I am really looking forward to seeing how these grow for you.    

[Charlie]

Chris, if White Diamonds problem was a sprawling growth habit that is sometimes easier to work with, but that is not its habit. WD is a small, runty, sticky bush much like its parent Lavender Ice which I also grew for many years. You are right that flaws can be bred out of some of these varieties but I'm not sure if it is worth the time and effort when there are other better overall cvs to work with. Each to their own, though, which is the beauty of hybridizing hibiscus - many possibilities and many roads to go down!

Wild Grape and Wild Allure are good case studies -   both are Born To Be Wild x Allure. BTBW has a nice bush, very upright while Allure tends to sprawl with thinner branches. Wild Grape takes after BTBW, showing an even nicer bush, while Wild Allure has thinner, faster growing branches that do not sprawl as much as Allure but can be floppy unless well trained. Same cross with similar flowers but for the bush one took after momma and one after poppa.

Hibiscus rosa-sapiensis! Very funny, but also apt. I wonder how many people who grow the HVH type of hibiscus realize that if people stopped taking cuttings for rooting and grafting new plants hibiscus would pretty much disappear from the planet in 1 or 2 human generations. There are almost no wild stands of hibiscus rosa-sinensis and its cultivars existing today. Most of the varieties that we choose to grow do not have suitable pollinators available and many varieties do not set seed even when pollinated by humans. Hibiscus are very dependent on human involvement and in turn we shape them by choosing the ones we like to grow. They must provide us with something important to us or we would not continue to do all this with them.

Time will tell with the FF offspring. I'm about to plant a large number of seeds which will include FF crosses with each other and with non-FF types. The mature bushes and first flowers will not be seen until 2013 so, alas, its waiting time again.

Charlie

[blupit007]

Chris, I cant wait to see your Gigantor!  I had my three CH seeds grow at completely different rates too, but not like yours!  Geez! 

[Nievesgirl]

Chris are these seeds I send you ? if so it probably is a Japanese morning glory HAHA ...... It looks like a morning glory seedling to me and then you said it has heart shaped leaves ? It must have gotten its way in the bags or when I was nicking seeds on my desk it got mixed in with the hibiscus seeds. If those are the seeds I sent you then this is a seed that I have had for over 10 years LOL.

The WD I have is nice and upright but its open... It is not creeping for me yet or sprawling.
Its the one one the far left.

[helixturnhelix]

@Charlie:   I guess I missed this post!  LOL, I think that White Diamonds is one that needs to mature alot to have a semi OK growth habit, like the one kerry showed.  Part of the problem with White Diamonds is it is inbred Lavender Ice, which is why the plant is slow and really lacks vigor. This is typical in some inbred animals/plants, we call it inbreeding depression.  What intrigues me about using White Diamonds is that it produces some really nice dark colored seedlings, one of my goals is trying to get a close to black bloom as possible.  I think White Diamonds might prove to be important in developing this.  I would also like to get a hold of one of those darker colored seedlings you got out of Blue moon, do you have any still in the works?  (Dark Angel, Indigo fire are two I can think of here).  I recently saw an interesting seedling with a nice bush, which was Cacacao x White Diamonds, so Cacao can break this less than ideal bush.  I will try using Arabian Princess x White Diamonds to hopefully get rid of that sprawling bush.  I think that Winter lights x White Diamonds might work well too, so far Winter light's growth habit has dominated the seedlings I am growing from it.  There are a few crossed to Antique Treasure, which is a sprawler as well, with no sprawling yet!  Another problem I have found in my research with using White Diamonds is usually it gives you mini sized flowers.  I think using Moonstruck, would help with flower size and bush shape here.  All speculation of course, now I just need to get out there and do it!

@ Kerry,  YUP its your 10 year old JAPANESE MORNING GLORY!  lol