Hybrid hibiscus general question

[Nievesgirl]

I had a random question.  Do you ever backcross your hybrids to the original cv parent in order to get a higher percentage of offspring that have the trait of the good parent that you want, or is it still pretty low the number of good cvs you get?   I guess and example of this would be taking Valentine's day and crossing her to High Voltage again.  Therefore increasing the number of offspring that would have High Voltage's good traits.  Or perhaps crossing them to an offspring like Strawberry cream which is a high voltage self cross.  I dont know if this is true with these hybrids that have such a diverse genetic background, but I thought I would ask if you have any experience with it. 

I wanted to know the same question IMO you type it right because I understand you  This does work with animals , so I am wonder if it would work with plants.

[Nievesgirl]

I had another question , How many self crosses have you done Charles ? and how many of the seedlings look almost like the CV that was self crossed?

[Charlie]

Hi Guys,

Yes, back crossing is a classic technique used by hibiscus hybridizers, at least some of them. A lot of hybridizing is dusting pollen from whatever is blooming that day onto whatever else is blooming. This is natural since most people have a limited number of plants and often only a few are blooming on any one day. However, those hybridizers who become obsessed with it have used back crossing as part of a more planned approach.

However, the problem with back crossing is that most of the hibiscus of the last century were flawed and using them for their good qualities also included their negative qualities. For that reason back crossing has been of limited use for me. Even High Voltage, with its many good qualities, has a way of passing on an attraction to spider mites and thrips that is a big negative in many situations. Midnight Blue is an excellent variety for getting more blue and purple colors into flowers, but the bush is not very good and does not root so I only use it very selectively nowadays and shy away from back crossing with it too often. One always hopes the best traits will prevail, but often they do not.

As better all around cvs are discovered I think back crossing will be more useful and no doubt will be seen a lot.

I have not done many self crosses. I did a lot with High Voltage and again with Rainbow Christie but that is about it. I did get a few cvs that I think are better than average from doing this but not a higher percentage than with other crosses.

There is still so much to learn and explore in all this. It's an excellent adventure we are all taking!!

Charlie

[Nievesgirl]

Great Info Charles , I think I will have seeds from Gator pride x Gator pride soon.  It was the only bloom open that day and it was humid and cloudy so I just took a chance So far the seed pod is growing.
My other cross I am waiting for seeds is heartbreak hotel x Voodoo magic

[Charlie]

Best of luck, Kerry! Sometimes they pods go all through the ripening process and then you open them and..........nada, nothing, empty!  grrrrr

These are interesting crosses, could be something nice comes from them. I've been seeing Erin Rachel x Gator Pride first blooms lately. Both parents are minis and the offspring have been, too, but with good color and form and lots of blooms.

Charlie

[Nievesgirl]

Best of luck, Kerry! Sometimes they pods go all through the ripening process and then you open them and..........nada, nothing, empty!  grrrrr

These are interesting crosses, could be something nice comes from them. I've been seeing Erin Rachel x Gator Pride first blooms lately. Both parents are minis and the offspring have been, too, but with good color and form and lots of blooms.

Charlie

I hope there will be seeds , its not too hot over where I am at , we had about 80 degree weather 4 times already , in the am its cloudy and my plants get shade. I do not even have to water them daily.

I saw the parents of Erin Rachel and I was going to try it with gator pride and , Devils' eye ( another mini from barry )

[helixturnhelix]

Hi Kerry I hope that you get some seeds!  I'm crossing my fingers   Funny enough I just got seeds from a Belle du Jour x Belle du Jour cross yesteday and a Saffron self cross.  I mostly made these crosses because that was the only flower blooming that day   The crosses I am really excited about that look about ripe is Saffron x Belle du Jour, Belle du Jour x Rainbow Sherbet,  Belle du Jour x Gator pride, and Saffron x Gator pride   My blue ballerina just started to bloom so I will be crossing her with cinnamon girl in an attempt to get some crazy prolific offspring.  I am going to cross my fingers though because summer is here and the mean daytime temperature where i am is high 90's into the 100s :-/   

[helixturnhelix]

Thinking more about backcrossing, it doesnt make alot of sense to do with plants that have such varied background because the point of backcrossing is to isolate a specific trait and increase the frequency of that trait, in effect creating a true breeding strain.  I think that trying to create a true breeding strain is the opposite of what hybridizers of hibiscus are trying to achieve.  The point is to make new exciting colors and flowers on strong vigorous bushes.  So I think that the approach I will take in creating new hybrids will to play the hybrid vigor card.  I think that by crossing varieties that were bred independently of one another ( U.S, Tahitian, Australian, and European hybrids) you would effectively introduce new genes and hopefully make more vigorous offspring.  I think Charlie has done this in many of his hybrids.  If you look at the parents of many of his good hybrids, their parents are from two different regions.  Look at 'Love Story' for example, her parents were 'Rosalin' (Aus.) and 'Candy Manners' (U.S.A.)  another would be 'Passion play', a 'High Voltage' (U.S.A) and 'Gwen Mary' (Aus) cross. It would be interesting to see if there is more vigor in the offspring between varieties from different regions, rather than the same.  Another nice thing about these Australian varieties is they are heat tolerant so in using them, hopefully this trait is passed on to the offspring.  I was also looking at maybe focusing on varieties that bloom well in shady conditions.  I think it would interesting to see if crosses between Sleeping Beauty, Delicia Amoris and Blue Ballerina would yield offspring that bloom well in low light conditions.  Then we could finally use hibiscus in a landscape with impatients and ferns:)  I also remember reading that the variety 'Apricot Butter' was a great low light bloomer.  Or maybe we could look at breeding a frost tolerant variety by current CVs that perform well in cool conditions.  I believe that 'Solar Eclipse' and 'Magic Carpet Ride' are two such CVs. There are just so many directions to go, but I guess the best way to start is to get those seed pods      

[helixturnhelix]

I just realized how many times I wrote "I think" >.< 

[Charlie]

What "you think" are pretty solid thoughts, in my opinion. There are a lot of directions to go and all of them take time and persistence to get any meaningful results.

There was a guy, a professional irrigation specialist, who tried to develop more cold hardy root stock hibiscus a few years ago. He did the hybridizing and got the new plants growing. His idea for testing them was to leave them outside all winter without any special protection. He lived in southern California but not right on the coast so some cold weather was expected. Unfortunately, that winter brought some colder than normal freezes and his entire crop of seedlings was wiped out. sigh.........he gave up trying for cold hardy after that. Something similar happened to Ross Gast, an early hybridizer whose main goal became trying to create varieties that would do better in California's unique climate. Ross Estey is the variety of his that has survived. Many of his other new varieties were wiped out in one bad cold snap although some still exist in 2 arboretums in LA and San Diego.

Anyway, hybrid vigor is a good thing to go for. Anything other than another "show flower" is good in my view. I do love the spectacular show flowers but growing many of them is a challenge (or a pain, depending on pov). It's no surprise that thousands of such varieties are now extinct.

Good luck, I'm especially curious about the self crosses you made and what comes from them.

Charlie

[helixturnhelix]

Thats too bad about the more cold tolerant plants, its frustrating after all the work you put into growing the seedlings and seeing them bloom only to have a cold snap wipe them out.  I planted the seeds yesteday so hopefully some will sprout.  In about 1-3 years I should have something to show   Until then, I will just have to enjoy the new seedlings that you have to show

-Chris

[Nievesgirl]

Thats too bad about the more cold tolerant plants, its frustrating after all the work you put into growing the seedlings and seeing them bloom only to have a cold snap wipe them out.  I planted the seeds yesteday so hopefully some will sprout.  In about 1-3 years I should have something to show   Until then, I will just have to enjoy the new seedlings that you have to show

-Chris

I was reading that ross Estey was the only one that survived,  I went on a hibiscus hunt yesterday walking through my neighborhood.  I looked at the big nice hibiscus plant that I think is Ross Estey. It has a lot of new growth ,  the leaves where shiny and big , no white flies or insects on it.  I need to get some root hormone so I can take a cutting from it.  The other unknown cultivar I was talking about had new growth and it was blooming.  I also found some nice hibiscus @ LAX  I will see if I can get a cutting from this cultivar , at first I thought it was hula girl but it is something else. Again this one has big foliage , shiny leaves blooms like crazy and its left out in the winter for years. Its a whole row of the same cultivar bordering the parking lot.  All three of these hibiscus I found are left alone and never get fertilizer , or sheltered and they are doing well.

The heartbreak hotel x voodoo pod broke off yesterday , Where I have the mother plant is been to much sun , I opened up the pod and saw only one seed that was growing. It was almost done too , all well . I see another pod on my heartbreak and i did not pollinate it so i think its a self cross.  The gator pride gets more shade so its pod is still there.

[helixturnhelix]

Haha Kerry, if you want a "Crown of Bohema" there are a bunch of them in Westchester and on the LMU campus.  That is right next to LAX if you are looking for some good cuttings.  I also saw a large "white wings" on 80th along with a good sized "brilliant"  You know theres a problem if you are driving around looking for plants to take cuttings from:)

[Nievesgirl]

Haha Kerry, if you want a "Crown of Bohema" there are a bunch of them in Westchester and on the LMU campus.  That is right next to LAX if you are looking for some good cuttings.  I also saw a large "white wings" on 80th along with a good sized "brilliant"  You know theres a problem if you are driving around looking for plants to take cuttings from:)

HAHHA I know I do have a problem , I got the root hormone today  .   Yeah no doubles for me lol or white wings there are a bunch every where !  I am only after not so common cultivars I see surviving with out care.