DESPERATE FOR HELP, Blisters and/or Black spots on the underside of leaves

[Bart]

Good Morning, I seemingly have a disease which probably reverts all the way back to summer 2010. I won't bore you with all the details but I would like to describe what I am seeing now in my Grow room. 1.  Creole Lady is showing a lot of discoloration. It is also showing a black mildew/fungus on the tops of the foliage which really makes the dark and light green spots show brightly against bright yellow. I also see black spots on many leaves which are helping to cause disfiguring of the leaf. 2.   Pina Colada-many leaves, if not all (even the great looking dark green glossy leaves that covers the plant, have black spots on the underside of the leaves. most every leaf on the plant will have, at least, a few black specs ( seen only under magnification) as well as a blister or two but; just in the last week I have noticed with naked eyes, a few leaves (seemingly they have always been the newest leaf at the tip of the branch that has opened completely up) which have developed hundreds of blisters, some with spots either inside the blister or on top, hard to tell even under 30X magnifier and others are just clear. If you wonder if they can be wiped of, the answer would be no. One other issue I see with Pina is the tips and edges of random leaves having brown tips and sometimes edges. If I left these on the plant long enough the brown tip would encroach on the rest of the leaf, I think.  Otherwise, those leaves are a beautiful dark green. Even the leaves with the clear blisters with spots in them and the leaves with the black specs on the underside are great looking leaves unless until whatever this is takes its toll on the leave and it begins to yellow.

The above issues will eventually cause yellowing but beyond that, I'm not certain because I take the leaf as soon as I notice any problem in an effort to protect, as much as possible, the area around the diseased leaf/leaves. I have several other Cultivars, all which I purchased from Charles and Cindy, housed in the same grow room. Some I have had For almost 3 years and some arrived this year about the same time I noticed my summer problems (note...no reason whatsoever to believe the disease arrived with my new plants) in the same grow room along with clones.  The roots of all plants appear to be very healthy (solid white and full). Every other cultivar in the room also shows some sign of disease whether it be a few black spots, a few blisters underside the leaves or in the case of Hot Pepper, yellowing leaves that with turn to a rotting look if left on the plant.

Some of the other cultivars: Belle du jour, Eye of Kali, Palm Springs, Hot Pepper (which I mentioned), Island Queen (IQ and Belle are the healthiest of the group at this time).

I have certainly bored you nice people with a relatively shortened version (it looks mike a book I know but please believe me when I say; I have been battling something since June 2010 without pause) of what could truly be a book if I had an ending and therein lies the problem. I've sent photos to people everywhere and with no luck on a diagnosis. I have even gone to two separate County ext agents an University of KY but to no avail. Had it been a stalk of tobacco or a handful of soybeans, I'm pretty sure UK could have helped.

I know there are no pix attached (mainly because I don't know how to attach them) but can someone please try to elaborate on maybe something I've written or possibly ask ,e something that could spark some additional ideas? I am wanting so badly to place my order for new plants but until I can determine my current problem, I can't fix it. I've guessed and sprayed all I'm going to at this point. I'm spending hundreds of ADDITIONAL dollars trying to fight back something that I haven't a clue what it is. What a waiste. I have clones many of the plants and they root just fine. I'm not sure if that tells me anything at all or not but I'm hoping I don't have to dig a big hole and bury them. I suppose, in my mind at least, if the cutting from the plants are strong enough to root, maybe it's not some incurable viral incurable killer?..

Please help...I am willing to pay someone to diagnose and help me to fix my problem, I just can't find that person. I've read many post on this board hoping to find a lead of some kind so I know there are some very knowledgable people posting, following and helping issue such as this and good people such as I strive to be someday...ha

Thanks in advance to whoever takes enough time out of their busy day to read such a post!
Sincerely,
Bart H.

If I need to add pix I probably could figure it out but it's unlikely you can see a lot of what I see when magnifying?

[Charlie]

Bart's hibiscus seem to have some sort of fungus or bacterial spotting on the leaves. Since this is not typical for hibiscus I have very limited experience with it. The only black spotting I see occurs during winter with plants left outside. In spring they drop those leaves and new ones grow in. No action is needed with pruning being a way to speed up the process when appropriate.

Perhaps someone who grows roses will have a suggestion or two since roses have a lot more leaf diseases than hibiscus. I suspect Bart's problems are related to his unique growing situation, which he has described in detail in private emails. Could also be something related to the water and/or soil in his part of Kentucky.

Most people who grow hibiscus do not worry much about the occasional black leaf spots since they rarely threaten the health or life of hibiscus bushes. One bacterial disease called Xanthamonas attacked one grower's hibiscus leaves in Florida that were wet all the time from sprinklers. That was hard to get rid of and caused defoliation of the plants that got it. It's the only case of a damaging leaf problem with hibiscus I've heard of except for Barts.

Control of most persistent problems usually comes from using the right sprays and making adjustments to the growing environment. Anyway, anybody with suggestions please jump in.

Charlie

[helixturnhelix]

Ah Ive seen this on some my plants since moving to the cool and humid PNW.  If one thinks about what fungi love - moist, stagnant conditions and food.  Being heterotrophs they break down plant material and are essentially eating your plant leaves, like a spidermite would.  Ive solved my problem by adding lots of additional air-movement, to the growing area which prevents moisture building up under leaves, which promotes the fungal growth.  I would add a few fans to blow around the air in your growing space and if it is enclosed addition of ventilation "windows" would also help alot!  

Good Luck Bart!

[Darkhorse]

As Chris mentioned a fan seems to make a big difference.  I have just a ceiling fan in my "grow bedroom" right now and it not only keeps the fungus at bay, it seems to deter spider mites as well.  Have you tried fungal sprays, Bart?  Something like "Insect, Disease, and Mite Control" might work.  My Night Runner was sent to me last year with black spots on the leaves--  a few sprays with Bayer and the problem was resolved.  I wouldn't throw out your plants yet.  From what I gather leaf diseases are USUALLY not as big of a deal as some other problems.  

[Nievesgirl]

Bart don't worry !

I have some experience with hybrid roses. I have had so much issues ( not like yours) with my seedlings and older hibiscus. I suggest you buying charlies wake up spray In concentrate bottle ( so you will have more). Next like chris and Jordan said yet a fan or get the hibiscus in a non humid location. I would get a rose fungicide asap as you wait for the wake up spray. Only use the fungicide in the morning because if you use it at night the moisture from it will not help you get rid of the fungus it will just come back. When I had my roses I would take ALL leaves that had the fungus on them because really you can't save these leaves. If part of the leaves have fungus cut the infected parts off if possible. Now the wake up spray will come handy spray this Wake up spray daily until you see new leaf buds. I have brought seedlings and grown hibiscus back to life with this stuff after having NO leaves on some of my plants. Like Charlie stated I have seen black spots on my hibiscus because of the winter ( A few at my aunts house have some black spots but its normal)

Here is a good link with some more info

http://www.rosemagazine.com/articles02/pages/blackspot.asp
http://www.rose-bushes.com/Tips/Disease.html

[Bart]

Guys, thanks so much for taking some time to post to my desperate plea. As for spraying fungicides, I've sprayed many different ones. I wish I could tell you the active ingredients in them but I'm traveling and I would have to look them up in order to even attempt to spell the names. I have spray stuff such as Rose Pride, Copper, streptomycin, Fung-in-oil, etc... About anything one can find at a Lowes or Home Depot, I've tried but to no avail. Strange enough, I was frustrated one night and mixed up some Physan 20 at 2 tsp/gal and sprayed Palm Springs. What I found was a very healthy looking plant after a few days. That was a shot in the dark as you can imagine.  All my plants with the have plenty of foliage with the exception of Palm Springs, Creole Lady and Eye of Kali is a bit light. Believe it or not, I found some gibberellic (sp) acid at a store last year, purchased it and made some Wake-up spray after mixing down to a 1% G. Acid in water. It works quite well however; they said it was all they had and wouldn't be able yo purchase any more of it. I had rather purchase Charlies anyway as I have complete trust that if he say I need it and he send it, I have no worries about what in getting...always quality.
I have lots of ventilation and air flow in the grow room. I currently have 4 larger fans, one in each corner, 3 are oscillating, and small fans moving air in and around my small cutting area. As for a window, I could certainly cut one in however; it would do no good as my travel trailer is sitting beside the garage area in which I built my growroom. It would not allow any sun.
What I am in the process of doing is adding an additional 1000watt HID lamp. I currently only run One along with fluorescent over my small clones. The room is only a 10' X 12' X 9' high with a 30" deep X 120" long X 60" high area for cutting and clones.

I am truly at a lose as I am seeing a so many different symptoms, depending on the cultivar. I would like to think it all stem from one common denominator but I am not intelligent enough to determine what that would be. If I look at even the beautiful shiny deep green foliage on any one plant with magnification, I will see a few raised bumps, whether they are raised black spots, raised clear looking blister looking spots or both. Those leaves will eventually grow enough of these that it will either turn brown, yellow or become oily looking and wither like a rag.

I will make every attempt to post some of the latest pix showing different variations of the fungus or whatever it is. Thank you guys so much for trying to help me. I always like to think I can beat most things by trial and error but... This has kicked me long enough and if I can't kill whatever it is before spring, the KY heat and humidity will vet the best of my plants and I'll have no beautiful blooms to enjoy. I have e en considered burying all of them, sanitizing everything I can, and starting all over. That would be difficult to do. Ive already done that very thing with the 4 plants of which I believe started the entire problem.

Can I post several pictures in one post or do I need to post only one pic at a time. I would like to first display each adult plant as it is today and then some individual pix of foliage that I have recently taken from each plant?  I know I must resize each to 400K.

[Charlie]

I think its now set to 5 photos attached to any one post but of course a second post can be made and 5 more added to it. Each photo must be less than 300 kb which is plenty, even for a large photo.

Charlie

[farmer d]

I hope this helps.  My plants have sustained a lot of winter damage from Dec and it is now really showing up.

Bart - see if any of the pics below looks like what you've got.

If not I have more pics of leaves that have all sorts of things going on.  It is reassuring to know once spring rolls around and weather is better that the plants will shed these and new leaf growth will occur.

Farmer D

[motherof4]

darren...a couple of my plants are looking like that too ..Lynette

[Charlie]

Lynette and Darren, this is very typical outdoor winter damage for southern CA hibiscus. If all goes well these leaves drop off or can be removed and nice new leaves grow back in the following summer.

Bart has some type of atypical leaf problem going on, not really the same as this. It's way too cold in Kentucky to overwinter hibiscus outside so his plants are moved to a room he built in his garage. There is no natural sunlight but he has some intense HID lights and keeps the room very warm. The plants grow very well in there as we saw last summer when he showed a photo of an Island Queen that was taller than he was! The plants are also fed constantly throughout the year. What this means is that the plants go from hot indoor climate to hot outdoor climate with no break for a cold spell. More like a tropical country and possibly more tropical type leaf disease. Not really sure what it is but seems to be unique to that type of growing situation. Might be an easy fix if he can figure out just what to do.

Charlie

[Bart]

Darrin, Thank you for posting those pix. I have had some that have a similar look but more as if someone had injected used oil inside the leaf and at random spots. I am not seeing so much of that now but when the heat and humidity of summer comes, I am afraid it will come back with vengeance. I still get several buds but few blooms and the plants defoliate from the first leaf at the bottom of a limb (truly any limb as in random) and works its way towards the tips.  The plants are looking good right now with the exception of some nasty raised spots which look like blisters with black spots but I found last night that I can wash them off with alcohol but they really look nasty.  it's almost as if a leaf has broken out with an allergy and has a terrible rash. the only leaf this appears on is the very last leave (tip) of the limb. the bottom leaf is the one that is coming off next...always.

They all will have some kind of black specks on the back and even when looking at a leaf that you would think to be perfectly healthy, with a closer look, it will have lack specks but they just have not damaged the leaves enough to cause yellowing, dulling or some kind of sick look that will warrant me to pull them from the plant.

Additional information that I just found out...I found that I have Scale. I didn't even know what they were until I was told and then read Charlie's article about the nasty things. I have always wanted to find an insect on the plants in hope that they are the cause of my problems. well; I found one alright. I don't think it is causing my current problems but I am afraid they are going to bring on more issues of their own.  I just found out so I was out last night looking for white spots on leaves. I have noticed these spots for a while but just thought it was another symptom of the ongoing problems as there have been many symptoms, of which I have yet to find a common denominator; but i will. I still have not seen a scale, just the white spots that I assume they live in. can't see the young crawlers that Charlie mentions in his article. All I can say is. now that i know, there sure are a lot of spots and especially on the young plants.  I am going to Louisville tomorrow and if I cant find Safari, I will order some from Charlie...I have to get some other stuff anyway.

That's all I have until I figure out the picture thing. I believe my issue has been the fact that I don't know how to upload from my iPhone and I thought for sure I would be able to. I will email the pix to myself and them post from the computer.  Thanks for everyone's input.  It would almost be impossible for me to describe this well enough for someone to come up with a diagnosis and cure based on my writings.  I WILL have pix soon but even then, I am not sure anyone has seen the issue. UK has had two shots at it but to no avail. If it were Corn or tobacco, I'd be in good hands...Ha

Bart

[Bart]

One retraction on my last post. I said I had Scale but after looking at the pix on the website, I think I was told Mealy bugs. Man, A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words...Ha

[davidwood]

One retraction on my last post. I said I had Scale but after looking at the pix on the website, I think I was told Mealy bugs. Man, A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words...Ha

If you need help on Mealybugs I concider myself an expert. I nearly stopped being a gardiner here in Vietnam because of them, I am 100% free of them now.

[Bart]

David, the reason I say that is due to a couple of guys, to whom I took some leaves to, told me they didn't know what my issue was but they did find 3 mealy bugs in the batch of leaves I took to them. I have never seen anything crawling but I do see some white mildew looking stuff going up the veins on the leaves, tip or bottom. there are also lots of blister-like bumps on the underside of some of the leaves.  I don't think these are mealy bugs however I do see some white fluffy stuff sometimes and I have no idea what that could be. It does not look anything like an insect. As much as I hate to say, i would describe it as pure white strands of fiber grouped together; similar to what I would describe a fiber optics phone line except just a piece here and there. i finally emailed some pictures to my computer and now I need to save them so I can post them. the thing, there are so many different symptoms from different species of plants, I can't post all of them. I think I can post enough to get a good idea of whats happening.

The issue is worsening and I feel panic setting in again.  Fortunately, I have a floriculture professor ask to see some photos so I sent him some today. I hope to here from him soon as he has a two seek conference coming up soon.  The foliage is starting to wilt, just random leaves and not in one place, and have a rotten look. They turn brown and wilted. I suspect, had I caught them in time to pull them before looking like that, they would have had the black spots and/or blister looking spots with black dots in the center.

I will work on saving the pictures tonight and post a few. I hope you can pull them in tight enough to see what I am seeing on the leaves. Thanks for the help and interest.

Bart

[Nievesgirl]

there are also lots of blister-like bumps on the underside of some of the leaves.

Sounds like spidermites bart since you can't see them crawling but see blisters under the leaves

I do see some white fluffy stuff sometimes and I have no idea what that could be. It does not look anything like an insect. As much as I hate to say, i would describe it as pure white strands of fiber grouped together; similar to what I would describe a fiber optics phone line except just a piece here and there.

This white fluffy stuff is from white flies !  look



Both pest are probably stressing your plants and this is why they have yellow leaves dropping from spidermites

I have spider mites and crazy to say whiteflies as well. You need to spray your plants with a high pressure sprayer like what Charlie has in his store.
I bought one and sprayed the plants at my aunts house once a week and all of the mites are gone. I bought hort oil to spray them to make sure they where gone and now 100% spidermite free. The ones at my house I put them in the tub and use my detachable shower head and turn water on super hot and spray them under the leaves and on top.

For white flies buy any spray at home depot for the white flies I use the hot water and the bayer insect spray.  I should have taken a picture of the white fly fibers they look like strings of silk or hair.

Since your hibiscus are stress I suggest getting supernova and fertilize them with the supernova the wake up spray will help also.

I really think you have spider mites and the cold weather along with the spidermites is making you hibiscus have different symptoms. Then you have the white flies also eating the hibiscus

hope that helps