Self Crossing and Hybridizing

[kris]

Hi Charlie,

I had another question about hybridizing.  I noticed that for several of your cultivars you did alot of selfing (pod and pollen parent are the same)  Specifically with high voltage and you got several new cultivars (cindy's heart, strawberries and cream, white lightning, etc...) I know that when you do self crosses you are decreasing genetic diversity and when done enough eventually producing a homozygous population, which seems to me is the opposite of creating new hybrids.  Did you do selfcrossing in order to increase the chance that high voltage's excellent qualities would be passed on to the offspring?  I thought it was really interesting that you did that and was just curious as to why and what gave you the idea to hybridize this way. 

-Kris

[Charlie]

I guess you could say.... curiosity overcame good sense. My informant at the time, who I will call Mr. Half Right due to a record of misinforming me about half the time, had told me it could not be done with the modern hybrids. It is difficult but I have since learned that it can and is done by various people around the world.

You are right that I found it desirable to maintain as many of High Voltage's good qualities (which were even more apparent among the cvs existing in the late 1990's) and so wondered what the result would be. I did get a few good cvs from doing this, but I also grew out a whole lot more from that seed that were not keepers. I think you could say it was about the same percentage of keepers that results from most non-self crosses that I make.

I tried the same with another favorite variety from that time, Rainbow Christie, and grew even more seeds of that self cross. The best thing to come out of it was Moonstruck, a very large flowered variety with interesting colors. Very few keepers relative to the number of seedlings grown.

What we are not considering is how the self crosses were made. It was not done through placing pollen on the staminal pads, in fact no sexual reproduction of this type was made. Instead I thoroughly confused some plants by applying growth inhibitor and growth stimulating plant hormones on the plants several times in such a way as to cause them to make seed. Dozens of pods full of seeds resulted. I was not sure that they would be fertile but indeed they were and sprouted and grew like normal seed.

The usefulness of this technique is limited, but one case where it might by of use is in getting seeds from a variety that normally does not set seed or does so rarely. I have yet to explore this but may do so before long.

Charlie

[kris]

Hi Charlie,

Thank you for explaining that.  That is really interesting that you still got a few pretty nice cvs out of it.  I think I am going to just cross your tried and true hibiscus and see what happens.  I'll just start with the best!  Which of your tried and true hibiscus is good for setting seed or have especially hot pollen.  My rainbow sherbert is covered in buds and I have some Saffron and Bell de jour coming in the 6 in pot size.  So I am hoping they will be ready to start blooming and pollination!

-Kris

[Charlie]

Hi Kris,

All 3 that you mention will set seed and all have good pollen. You could do a lot worse than to explore all the potential in those 3 cvs. You will get some big flowers, strong bushes, prolific blooming, and an array of colors.

Charlie

[helixturnhelix]

Ive done some crossing with these three cvs, I hope that I get some good results

[Nievesgirl]

My gator pride x gator pride pod is turning brown now ! yippy I hope I get at least more than 2 seeds lol

[Charlie]

Good luck with the Gator Pride pod. I'm afraid it might be empty which will be a big disappointment. On the other hand, maybe it will have dozens!!!

Do you know what the average number of seeds per pod is? One year I kept a record of all the pods and numbers of seeds, and another time I studied the records Ross Gast left behind in which he recorded the number of seeds for each cross he made. Amazingly, when I did the math my average number of seeds per pod exactly matched his number of seeds per pod. Although the total number per pod varied from 1 seed to over 40 seeds for both of us, the average turned out to be 10 seeds per pod.

Charlie

[Nievesgirl]

Good luck with the Gator Pride pod. I'm afraid it might be empty which will be a big disappointment. On the other hand, maybe it will have dozens!!!

Do you know what the average number of seeds per pod is? One year I kept a record of all the pods and numbers of seeds, and another time I studied the records Ross Gast left behind in which he recorded the number of seeds for each cross he made. Amazingly, when I did the math my average number of seeds per pod exactly matched his number of seeds per pod. Although the total number per pod varied from 1 seed to over 40 seeds for both of us, the average turned out to be 10 seeds per pod.

Charlie

I read that you could get 1-60 I was shocked. 40 is a lot ! I can't believe hibiscus can produce so much seeds in one pod. My pod is cracking on the side should I take it off the plant or let it dry some more ?

[Nievesgirl]

Surprise !  9 seeds out of gator pride x gator pride 

[Charlie]

Excellent! Let them dry thoroughly so they don't mold and then put them in an airtight container that you keep cool and dark to maintain potency. I use very small ziplock bags to store mine but there are many possibilities.

Charlie

[helixturnhelix]

Gratz kerry!

[Nievesgirl]

I will probably grow these and do my experiments with them since its my own cross seeds 

[Darkhorse]

How long do they take to dry?  I have a seed pod on my Swamp Music!  It's about a month or so old... don't know how it got there.  I pollenated somewhat randomly so it will sadly be unknown x Swamp Music.  I didn't mark the pollenated blooms because they're in full sun, and I didn't really think anything would take.  I think I might have another seed pod on my Med. Man, although that one must have selfed because I haven't done any more crossing. 

[Charlie]

The time to dry the seeds depends a lot on the pod. Some pods ripen, crack open and dry quickly before you ever get the seeds out. Some crack open mostly green and still mostly dry, but some turn a wet mushy brown and the seeds come out wet. The idea is to just dry the surface enough so that mold does not form. You don't want the seed to dry out inside or it becomes useless. I usually remove the seeds from the pods and let them sit on a safe protected countertop for 12-24 hours before bagging them up.

BTW, someone asked about when to remove the pod from the plant. You can do that as soon as you see the pod start to crack open or you can wait until it turns completely brown and opens. The risk is that the seeds can spill out once it opens and they are very hard to find again. If the pod is still green when you remove it do not open it manually and take out the seeds because some of them are likely to still be maturing. Just store the pod in a warm safe place while it finishes ripening. It it is very green when you remove it you should leave some stem on it and place the stem in some water and wait until it turns brown to open it up.

Charlie

[helixturnhelix]

Hey Charlie,

Have you tried using this hormone technique to produce seed pods in CVs that normally do not set seed?  It would be interesting to see if you could get pods from those varieties using the techniques you used to get those high voltage self crosses