Cross suggestions and why

[Charlie]

Here are some suggestions for Big bloom theory lol

Moonstruck X Byron Metts or vice versa  for any of the crosses

This one will work crossed either way since both set seed. I'm about to move a budded up 2 gallon Byron Metts to the office where it is handy for hybridizing. It's always a choice - cut the wood to make more plants or make seeds and enjoy the blooms, can't do both simultaneously. [/color]

Maybe some nice big browns or purples will come out since byron Metts has Old Spot, Nat Shepard,Devil's Gold , and Miss Liberty in its pedigree.  Moonstruck already is doubled up on both  purple/blue and brown genes because of Rainbow Christie.

Good research, Kerry. The heavy texture of BMetts flowers would be a benefit to the lighter substance of Moonstruck blooms and prevent them from reflexing when they first open.



Acadian Spring X Moonstruck same reason as above cross but since 'Acadian Spring'  has unknown parents you can see what comes out.

I've been meaning to get an Acadian Spring plant over here to see if it sets seeds. As long as it has good pollen we can get some on a Moonstruck. My current Moonstruck plant is bloomed out and has pods developing but there will be another chance sooner or later.

James Bond X Bryon Metts same as above lol

Harder with a new one like James Bond that is sold out and has a waiting list. All the wood for the next year will get cut to make new plants but eventually........


Bridal Path X Moonstruck ( not sure if Chris mention this cross to you before )
Bridal Path X byron Metts
Bridal Path X Giganormous

Bridal Path has not yet set seeds for me. I have some crosses of it using its pollen on Saffron and some others. I don't have it crossed with any of these yet, and the last cross will probably not be possible since neither has set seed for me before. I am cautious of saying "never" when it comes to hibiscus  because they seem to love to surprise us. Just the right conditions on just the right day and maybe seeds are possible.


Black Dragon X moonstruck
Black Dragon X Byron Metts
Black Dragon X Robin hood
Black dragon X James Bond

Same problem with Black Dragon - reluctant to set seeds (not yet for me) but it does make lots of good pollen. That means the first 2 above are possible using pollen, and the last 2 are unknown as to whether they will set seeds. Black Dragon does seem to help with size, a new one named 'Raging Bull' that is Saffron x Black Dragon is quite large at up to 9 inches.

Burnt Saffron X James bond
Burnt Saffron X moonstruck

Yes, I want to explore Burnt Saffron more. I have it back crossed with Saffron and a seedling or 2 growing now but by the time my plants are big enough to bud up they are either cut for more wood or shipped out. If it turns out to be a seed setter I also want to back cross it with Black Dragon, though I fear for the bush in the seedlings.

Crinkle in time X It's a wonderful life
Crinkle in Time X bryon metts
Crinkle in Time X robin Hood

I've only tried to set seeds with Byron Metts out of the above, so maybe for the rest of the crosses. Crinkle is so new that I won't have many blooms for a year or so for the reasons given above.

It's a Wonderful Life X Black dragon
Its's a wonderful life X burnt Saffron
It's A wonderful Life X Rockin Robin
It's a wonderful life x red satin

I agree, this should be the year to explore It's A Wonderful Life. I just need to set aside an 8 inch pot for the purpose and bring it over when budded up.

Red Satin X Monnstruck
Red satin X Black Dragon
Red Satin X Rockin robin

If it sets seeds, might as well see what comes from this big bold flower.

Rockin' Robin X moonstruck
Rockin R X James Bond
Rockin R X bryon Metts

Not yet tested, but Rockin' Robin is another good candidate for later when more plants are available.


Stolen Kiss X Moon Struck
Stolen Kiss X rockin robin
Stolen Kiss X robin hood

Stolen Kiss does set seeds and I'm testing its potential with quite a few crosses this year. I've got it with Moonstruck, Belle du Jour, Saffron, and several others. I am hoping to get some decent color in this big flower while preserving it's ability to root well.

White lightening X moonstuck
Strawberry Cream X moonstruck
Both with Robin hood, and rockin robin  
I think this might be interesting since both CV's are double up on the genes

I've not had any luck getting seeds on Strawberry Cream but the pollen works. I have finally gotten a 2 gallon White Lightning budded up and ready to hybridize. We'll see if it can set seeds during the next couple of months. I'm pretty sure that I have seedlings of the 2nd cross above growing now but with Moonstruck as the seed parent.

Giganormous X moonstruck
Giganormous X Crinkle in time
Giganormous X James bond
Giganormous X robin hood
Giganormous X rockin robin
Giganormous X Matador

Until I grafted some a couple weeks ago the only plants of Giganormous I had were in huge pots that I don't want to move. I will keep one or two of the grafted ones to try hybridizing with. Even if it does not seed seed I could get some pollen on Moonstruck at least and perhaps on Stolen Kiss (where's the color?) and whatever else is big and handy when the pollen is available.

This reminds me that Chris has some ideas going about freezing pollen for later use. If that turns out to be practical it would sure increase the possibilities.


Fantasy Charm x Moonstruck
Fantasy Charm X robin hood
Fantasy Charm X rockin robin
Fantasy Charm X james Bond
Fantasy Charm X crinkle in time
Fantasy Charm X bridal Path

Alas, no seeds from Fantasy Charm. I used in fairly often in earlier years with only the Rosalind x Fantasy Charm offspring First Lady still being around. With many new cvs to try her pollen on it may be worth giving it another go. The bush is slow growing and does not branch that readily which are drawbacks for me but even so the flower is huge, well formed, and gorgeous. BTW, one of the Fantasy Charm plants I sold the San Diego Zoo was over 6 feet tall when I saw it last. That puts the flowers as visible mostly for birds but even so it was impressive to see one that tall.

With a case like the last one suggested, Fantasy Charm x Bridal Path, where neither parent sets seed, I like to pick another cv that does set seed such as Belle du Jour and use the pollen of both the non-seed setters on Belle. Then we can cross the offspring of those crosses and thus bring some of the genes of each into play with each other even though we cannot cross them directly.


I have more crosses but just think about the ones listed hehehehe

Nice job, Kerry. It's always great to kick around ideas and stimulate thinking on this.

[Charlie]

Wow those are alot of crosses, you should get on making them Kerry!

My philosophy is a bit different.  I think it would be cool to make homogenous crosses of varieties that can be used to produce dark coloration or lighten colors up.  Perhaps one gives you ruffling or large flower size.  Then you could just mix and match these varieties so that you have a higher probability of getting offspring that you want.  I think that its a long way off and maybe not entirely practical since there are many loci and factors that contribute to gene expression.  I do have to say that I have been looking at how Orchids are bred (since they have been hybridizing them for decades)  and it seems that many varieties are well documented to produce offspring with specific trait.  So much so that cross a particular red with a specific small yellow will give you small orange varieties.  I think that hibiscus hybridizing is a bit young, but I think that in time you will be able to perform very predictable crosses and get that bush and flower you want much like they do with orchids.   

It would really help if we had better data recorded for the crosses made in the past. There is a start to it with the nomenclatures that exist but there are many gaps in it and its doubtful if the info is entirely accurate either. Still, it's much better than nothing.

Chris, what you report about orchids is interesting. I have to question whether it is applicable to hibiscus though. I say this because of the huge variation we see in offspring when working with hibiscus. What we might be able to say is that if you plant 100 seeds of a given cross a few (like 1-5) of them will show the expected result. I don't think that we can normally count on the seeds in any one pod (average is 10 seeds) giving the expected result but with enough seeds perhaps so. No one has access to records like this since the non-keepers are disposed of without records being kept or made publicly available.

Someone was marketing software for hybridizers a few years ago. If hybridizers got in the habit of using such software to keep records of all their results and if these databases could be combined among hybridizers, then we could figure out more than we have up til now. I don't see this happening any time soon, however.

For those of you new to the world of hybridizing hibiscus, it helps to keep in mind that the photos of "successes" that are shown online represent only a tiny fraction of the plants grown from seed by hybridizers. For every "good" flower you see dozens of other hybridized plants made flowers that were not worth showing and never are shown in the online forums. Virtually all hybridizers go through periods that are discouraging as they see first flower after first flower that disappoint before once again they find that special beauty worth showing the world. It's a real thrill to find your first "keeper" but it can take a lot of work and time before it happens. Or it could happen first time out and then be followed by a long dry spell before the next one. In any case, hybridizing is a labor of love without a doubt.

Charlie

Charlie

[Nievesgirl]

Haha Charlie thanks for reading my suggestions. I already knew you probably wont get a chance to cross some of your newer cv's I was just throwing the idea out there 

My idea of hybridizing has to do with my back ground with breeding animals lol , Like with my cats I would not breed them just randomly So I suspect the same with my hibiscus 
I been just looking at hibiscus pedigrees as I would if it was a dog or cat and its been so far very helpful. Time will tell if any of my ideas come out good , I just can't wait to see the seedling I sent you Charlie !

I think my last cross took so I should be sending you Simple pleasure x blue ballerina cross ( this was a cross I did just because of what was blooming lol )

[Darkhorse]

My Sunkissed Blonde opened today and got me thinking... this would be a nice cross with Saffron.  Both are larger flowers with nice form.  Saffron has a great bush and so does SKB (albeit slow growing).  My SKB had one main stem earlier this year, and I pruned it... it is now growing around 12 new branches out of that one main stem.  Anyway, both flowers have white eyes.  Would be interesting to see what could be gotten from this cross.

[helixturnhelix]

I like it!  Im glad my SKB isnt the only slow grower... its pretty much the same size but with five branches.  I sent Charlie some SKB x Burnished Gold, so when those bloom it will be interesting to see what they look like! 

[Doll]

With Whisper Soft I see you sometimes use some old garden varieties as a parent. I was thinking Blue Ballerina crossed with the old garden variety Psyche might be interesting. Psyche holds up to the heat extremely well. Both have small flowers so might make another nice houseplant cultivar.

[Charlie]

Yes, this approach has not been explored as much as it should be. The standard line you will hear from hibiscus people is that going back to garden variety types results in too much of a setback to the flower. It's often true that the flowers become smaller, less well formed, and more simply colored but it is not always true. Take a look at Blue President sometime - this is a cross of the common red President with Renaissance Blue. That flower is already quite nice even in this first generation cross back on an old garden variety.

In any case the benefit to the bush and its ability to be propagated that comes from such crosses makes doing them attractive to me.

Doll, if you can make that cross (have both varieties) you should do it! I think it will only work by taking pollen of Psyche and putting it on Blue Ballerina but you can try it both ways to see.

Charlie

[helixturnhelix]

Hey Doll

Another thing you could try is using some of the CVs Charlie has already crossed to standard garden varieties and cross those to other exotics.  In theory you should get more fancy blooms, but hopefully retain the easy of growing of those garden varieties. 

Right now I am using First Love (Gwen Mary x President) to do that.  Charlie mentioned blue president as another one that is like this Young at Heart and Whisper Soft are a few more. 

Song Sung Blue is an example of using one of these crossed to another exotic to produce a robust plant with interesting exotic blooms. 

[Darkhorse]

Rereading kerry's crosses with moonstruck inspired me...  what about saffron x moonstruck?  both are large-flowered varieties with good bushes and growth.  another interesting aspect of this cross is that both cvs are less favored by spider mites.  maybe resistance could be passed on to the offspring.  would be a good trait to have to save hours of washing w hort oil!  oh and both set seed so the cross could be done both ways.  i had a moonstruck last year but it didnt make it, so charlie this will be a cross for you to do unless i stumble upon another moonstruck. 

[Pachrian]

Quote: "Alas, no seeds from Fantasy Charm. I used in fairly often in earlier years with only the Rosalind x Fantasy Charm offspring First Lady still being around. With many new cvs to try her pollen on it may be worth giving it another go. The bush is slow growing and does not branch that readily which are drawbacks for me but even so the flower is huge, well formed, and gorgeous. BTW, one of the Fantasy Charm plants I sold the San Diego Zoo was over 6 feet tall when I saw it last. That puts the flowers as visible mostly for birds but even so it was impressive to see one that tall.

With a case like the last one suggested, Fantasy Charm x Bridal Path, where neither parent sets seed, I like to pick another cv that does set seed such as Belle du Jour and use the pollen of both the non-seed setters on Belle. Then we can cross the offspring of those crosses and thus bring some of the genes of each into play with each other even though we cannot cross them directly.

Charlie"

Charlie, I have a nice, big seed pod growing on Fantasy Charm. Is it likely to be empty or the seeds not viable, or is the fact that a pod is growing a good sign? I used Fallen Hero pollen on 8/20 on it, because it was the only one available.

[Charlie]

Uli,

There is one listing for a cross with Fantasy Charm as the mother (seed setter). Sometimes hybridizers make mistakes in their records but it is also possible that this 1 registered variety is the exception to the experience of many who have tried. It's probably an empty pod but don't give up on it - you never know until you see what's inside!

Chris, crossing Moonstruck and Saffron is something I have done, but only 2 plants have grown from the seed to first flower. One was Saffron x Moonstruck and the other Moonstruck x Saffron. In fact, one of the seedlings posted today was from the latter cross. It is a large, about 8 inch, solid shocking pink color. The other one was a very large, very wild flower that was not useable. Photos of both are below. I feel sure that we have not seen even a tiny fraction of the possible offspring of this cross nor explored the other qualities like pest resistance.

Charlie

[Darkhorse]

I put some Sunkissed Blonde pollen on two Saffron blooms today; first time my Saffron has bloomed and twins!  (no pictures... too dark)  Now that the plants are inside, I can actually try to hybridzie.  This will be my first real attempt.  I hope I get at least one seed pod!

[davidwood]

I put some Sunkissed Blonde pollen on two Saffron blooms today; first time my Saffron has bloomed and twins!  (no pictures... too dark)  Now that the plants are inside, I can actually try to hybridzie.  This will be my first real attempt.  I hope I get at least one seed pod!

Jordan,I am the same as you and will be happy with just one pod. I have managed to get hold of some seeds but there wont be the thrill of doing it all myself. I will keep plodding away and I am sure I will strike lucky sometime.

[Darkhorse]

I know, David.  I want one of my own seedlings.  Just one.  I'll probably send the rest of the seeds to Charlie.  No space here for growing out seedlings.   

The heat will make it hard for you.  How long have you been crossing w/ no luck? 

[Darkhorse]

An update on the Sunkissed Blonde x Saffron... both pods seem to have taken.  Two weeks have gone by and they're still bright green and getting bigger.  These will be my first seeds, assuming they make it!