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helixturnhelix
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« on: July 08, 2009, 10:15:43 PM » |
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Hi Charlie, I remember a post a while back in which you had a project of crossing exotic hibiscus with garden varieties in an attempt to introduce positive qualities like heat tolerance and prolific blooming to exotic strains. I was thinking about this today actually because I was looking into breeding angelfish, and I think that you could probably do the same thing they do. Because some varieties of angelfish are so inbred, often times they lose their ability to take care of their offspring, so the breeder usually has to come in and artificially hatch them. In addition to this unpopular trait, the often loose vigor and body shape/size. So what these breeders usually do is cross a female or male of this fancy strain to wild type, thus producing an F1. They then cross these F1s back to the fancy variety siblings. The F2 result of this cross is 3/4 of the individuals express the phenotype of the desired variety, but have improved vigor and offspring rearing. I think that you have a good number of 'F1' offspring from this project that you could cross with other varieties that have a nice flower but lacks vigor. If this project was something you wanted to continue to pursue, I would use those F1s you already have, because they have the desired characteristics that you want, but also have genes for larger more exotic looking flowers. Hopefully you could get more offspring with fancy, large flowers by crossing these varieties with other exotics to introduce the positive traits from these garden varieties, rather than starting from scratch by crossing them to garden varieties again. Im not sure if you are already doing this, but I thought I would throw the idea out there.  |
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Charlie
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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2009, 07:10:35 AM » |
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Hi Chris,
It's interesting to hear what is being done with other species, even fish!
Coincidentally, yesterday I harvested seeds from a pod that is Young At Heart, an F1 that is President x Gwen Mary, x Black Dragon. It's a long shot but a flower having some of the qualities of Black Dragon on a more vigorous and well shaped bush would be something special! I haven't done as many crosses to get F2 types as I planned but am getting back to it this year. I have a few seeds from crosses with Blue President, an F1 that has a fine flower but not the great bush that I hoped for in an F1. I don't know what to expect from further crosses with Blue President but will find out as these seeds grow.
The "standard line" has been that crossing with garden varieties sets the program back too much to be worthwhile. My early results do not show this to be the case and I plan to continue to do some of this each year. Following through with the F2 crosses you suggest is likely to be an important aspect in getting real success.
Below is a photo of a Young At Heart bush in our garden last summer and a photo of Black Dragon that YAH was crossed with to get F2 seeds.
Charlie
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Nievesgirl
Posts: 938
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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009, 09:01:04 AM » |
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Hi Charlie, I remember a post a while back in which you had a project of crossing exotic hibiscus with garden varieties in an attempt to introduce positive qualities like heat tolerance and prolific blooming to exotic strains. I was thinking about this today actually because I was looking into breeding angelfish, and I think that you could probably do the same thing they do. Because some varieties of angelfish are so inbred, often times they lose their ability to take care of their offspring, so the breeder usually has to come in and artificially hatch them. In addition to this unpopular trait, the often loose vigor and body shape/size. So what these breeders usually do is cross a female or male of this fancy strain to wild type, thus producing an F1. They then cross these F1s back to the fancy variety siblings. The F2 result of this cross is 3/4 of the individuals express the phenotype of the desired variety, but have improved vigor and offspring rearing. I think that you have a good number of 'F1' offspring from this project that you could cross with other varieties that have a nice flower but lacks vigor. If this project was something you wanted to continue to pursue, I would use those F1s you already have, because they have the desired characteristics that you want, but also have genes for larger more exotic looking flowers. Hopefully you could get more offspring with fancy, large flowers by crossing these varieties with other exotics to introduce the positive traits from these garden varieties, rather than starting from scratch by crossing them to garden varieties again. Im not sure if you are already doing this, but I thought I would throw the idea out there. This is what I plan to do with my hibiscus program. I am looking for cv's that have species as either a parent or granparent. This is why I want to use Ross Estey to bring in some fresh blood. I been looking at a lot of hibiscus pedigrees and a lot are inbred or heavly linebred. I will see what happens of course this will take a few years lol |
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~Kerry~
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009, 04:40:23 PM » |
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I am definitely seeing a trend in inbreeding and line breeding between certain cvs, it is no wonder they have such bad bushes! This is why I think what Charlie is doing crossing CVs from around the world with our american varities is a great way to introduce some new genes into the American hibiscus pool! It might be nice to not only cross these fancy varieties to garden varieties, but also to one of the ancestral species like H. rosa-siensis itself! That would be a true F1 that you could use, though early hybrids is pretty darn close.
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Charlie
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2009, 06:40:01 AM » |
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Hey Chris,
I really want to make some of these crosses but have yet to do so. My first thought was to verify that the H species I have collected are in fact what they are supposed to be. To do that I have to cross each with itself and see if they set seeds, which they should. Then I need to grow the seeds and see if the offspring appear to be the same as the parent. If the offspring vary significantly that would of course cast doubt on these plants being the Hibiscus species they are supposed to be. However, it occurs to me that I can do this at the same time as making what I hope to be F1 crosses. Originally my goal was to use this type of program to find varieties that are as close to identical to the successful and widespread garden varieties of hibiscus as possible. The origins of varieties such as the red named 'Brilliant' are lost in the mists of time but if I could recreate 'Brilliant' as an F1 or F2 I would have a pretty good idea which species were involved in making 'Brilliant'. Without genetic testing I wouldn't know how close the new variety would be to the original but it would interest me anyway to see if 'Brilliant' or 'President' or 'Seminole Pink' could be duplicated by crossing the species I have.
Charlie
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2009, 05:26:52 PM » |
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Hi Charlie, I think it makes alot of sense to do it simultaneously. It would really be interesting to see what results you get from these crosses. Its too bad it takes 1-3 years to see the fruits of your labor. Sigh, I just collected seeds from Saffron x Belle, its too bad I wont know if I got anything good for a while  -Chris |
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Nievesgirl
Posts: 938
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2009, 09:51:08 AM » |
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There is a Hybridizer Named Jill ( can not remember her last name) she lives in Hawaii , she has crossed some H. Species in some of her Cv's The flowers look great, from what She told me she said both are such good growers and they bloom like crazy! This is a great Sign  My problem is space ! I might have to buy a root stock cv such as pride of hawkins and just start grafting other cv's onto it so save space ! |
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~Kerry~
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2009, 12:41:04 PM » |
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That is really interesting, I think that the idea that starting with crossing species and garden varieties with exotics will take too long to produce anything of value is about to be debunked. If you could find out more about it, I would be interested in looking at her data and the phenotypes she got from each cross, as well as the frequency of that phenotype.
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Nievesgirl
Posts: 938
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2009, 01:35:26 PM » |
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Chris her name is Jill Coryell The cv's That she gave me info on are not direct crosses. One of the parents is a hybrid crossed with species. I just emailed her about another cv to see what she says. Butterfly was her main starting plant she worked with. I found out that Ross Gast, ( the hybridizer Charlie talked about using species and garden varities that can with stand the cold) Hybridized butterfly. Butterfly could be a species cross or garden cross since we do have the history of Ross trying to create cold tolerant CVs. You would have to ask her more in depth about her success rate when crossing etc. http://www.hibiscusladyhawaii.com/ |
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~Kerry~
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2009, 01:37:14 PM » |
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Thanks Kerry!
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Nievesgirl
Posts: 938
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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2009, 01:40:11 PM » |
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Also check out Autumn Majesty I asked her about this CV because it looks to have traits from a garden or species Hibiscus. ( this is another reason I think Butterfly could be qa garden or species cross)
You can tell that this Cv grows tall and vigorous ! look at all the blooms
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~Kerry~
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2009, 04:34:36 PM » |
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That cv is really interesting, the flowers have the form of some garden varieties, but are in the color of alot of exotics. I think I am going to order a Mo'opuna. It looks like a really pretty orange mini that is only two generations removed from H. kokio! It is also pretty interesting how Jill says many of her F1 and F2 generations really look like standard garden varieties, meaning that perhaps many of our garden varieties are indeed F1s or F2s. It would also be nice to start with a variety that is not too far removed from its hawaiian ancestry. It is also pretty interesting how she has several scented varieties much like heaven scent. Every hybridizer has different goals and I think scented hibiscus is a pretty cool one to shoot for. The real question is what is my goal?  |
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Nievesgirl
Posts: 938
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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 05:19:12 PM » |
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That cv is really interesting, the flowers have the form of some garden varieties, but are in the color of alot of exotics. I think I am going to order a Mo'opuna. It looks like a really pretty orange mini that is only two generations removed from H. kokio! It is also pretty interesting how Jill says many of her F1 and F2 generations really look like standard garden varieties, meaning that perhaps many of our garden varieties are indeed F1s or F2s. It would also be nice to start with a variety that is not too far removed from its hawaiian ancestry. It is also pretty interesting how she has several scented varieties much like heaven scent. Every hybridizer has different goals and I think scented hibiscus is a pretty cool one to shoot for. The real question is what is my goal? Yes she told me the same about the F1s and F2s looking like garden varieties I am going to get pohai ke aloha because its red and I am looking for a good red. I was thinking about Mo'opuna but its orange maybe when you get it we can swap wood or seeds when you start hybridizing . I found my goals and I been researching a lot. My CV wish list was more than 50 cv's long but now I got it down to 15-20 lol I am doing two seperate programs hopefully next year I can post the seedlings I am growing for others and get some of the members on here opinions. I am still waiting for a lot of blue brown seeds ! I am so impatient I been rushing to see my mail daily lol |
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~Kerry~
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helixturnhelix
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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 06:53:39 PM » |
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Oh i want to get Pohai ke Aloha too! I really like that color combination it sounds really nice! I would be more than happy to send you some cuttings of Mo'opuna when i get enough growth to get cuttings. I also think I can get some H. anorttianus wood. I just planted some seeds, from belle du jour x safrron, but it looks like I have some from belle x fantasy charm if you are interested, but I would expect this cross will prob get some pinks that you arent very interested in No other seeds atm, but it looks like cinn girl x belle is going to take so you are welcome to those as well I am out of room right now so I would be more than happy to send you some of my seeds when they are ready. I look forward to seeing some of your seedlings! (looks like some of the seeds from my Rainbow sherbet x belle du jour are sprouting right now ) -Chris |
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Nievesgirl
Posts: 938
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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009, 08:47:20 PM » |
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Oh i want to get Pohai ke Aloha too! I really like that color combination it sounds really nice! I would be more than happy to send you some cuttings of Mo'opuna when i get enough growth to get cuttings. I also think I can get some H. anorttianus wood. I just planted some seeds, from belle du jour x safrron, but it looks like I have some from belle x fantasy charm if you are interested, but I would expect this cross will prob get some pinks that you arent very interested in No other seeds atm, but it looks like cinn girl x belle is going to take so you are welcome to those as well I am out of room right now so I would be more than happy to send you some of my seeds when they are ready. I look forward to seeing some of your seedlings! (looks like some of the seeds from my Rainbow sherbet x belle du jour are sprouting right now ) -Chris You are so LUCKY !!!!! I keep crossing my plants they start to produce seeds but the heartbreak hotel x voodoo magic cross fell off because of heat. i opened it up and only one seed was forming. Last night I knocked nightfire x gator pride pod off !!!!! I opened it up and only one seed was forming. I am not having any luck. My gator pride x gator pride is the only one that is almost done growing its pod. We will see how many seeds I am guessing 1-2 just like the others. One reason why they may not be producing more seeds in pod is because of me not fertilizing  . Also I do not know which cv's are seed setters lol all well I will keep trying. |
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~Kerry~
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