Gator Pride Offspring

[helixturnhelix]

Note from Moderator: I'm not sure whether to put this topic in the Cultivar Board or the Science Board but since the Genes and Flower Color thread discusses the possibility of "lightening" genes and this topic demonstrates some examples, it is going here.


Oh suprises are always fun  Charlie, do you have any pictures of some gator pride offspring to share?

[Charlie]

I never put all the photos of Gator Pride offspring together to look at them. The crosses I made using it 1-2 years ago are still blooming for the first time so the results are not all in. But, wow, what I have so far is surprising. Gator Pride seems to serve as a "lightener" in the crosses I made. Only when crossed with Erin Rachel did I get intense color. In all other cases the new flower is softer in color than Gator Pride and sometimes softer than both both parents. Erin Rachel crosses appear to be the opposite - color intensity is preserved in most of them.

Two standouts with the Gator Pride crosses are:
Moonstruck x Gator Pride. Light color but different and the size of Moonstruck at 8".
Gator Pride x Blue Ballerina. Light color but a closer to true blue than most. Excellent bush.

I will post these 2 below.

Charlie

[Charlie]

Here are some more examples of Gator Pride crosses that resulted in flowers with lighter color than the parents plus 1 with intense color from Erin Rachel. One of these days I will probably be surprised with one that has intense colors but so far none has showed itself. The one 08-0016 is a cross with a garden variety, a solid yellow I call San Diego Yellow.

Charlie

[helixturnhelix]

I really like that this is a new discussion topic

That is very interesting that gatorpirde serves to lighten the majority of its offspring, especially since it is brightly colored!  The cross with erin rachel is very interesting, even in the picture the coloration is very intense.  Are there multiple offspring between gatorpride and erin rachel in which this happens?

The only observation I can make in regards to the lightening is when crossed with moonstruck, saffron, cinnamon girl, and blue ballerina.  It looks as though these offspring there was a reduction in the amount of red or orange pigment that was being produced.  Its almost as if you see the underlying color without this pigment.  Kinda like seeing the color of leaves change in the fall without chlorophyll.

Its interesting that when crossed with bluebird, those two offspring seem to have more of gatorprides form and color, although the brown one is very interesting. 

It is too bad that it seems as though many of the gator pride offspring have faded and more pastel coloration, especially since gatorpride itself has such bright coloration!  The fact that erin rachel produces vibrant offspring is great news to develop flowers that do not fade in the sun.  I remember there being a cv in the store opening 'flickering flame' that had good color retention.  Since one of 'Flicking flames' parents were 'Heavy metal' do you find that your crosses with 'Heavy metal' also produce highly pigmented offspring?

I think im going to do some research on color pigment expression in flowers

[Darkhorse]

Gator Pride x Cinnamon Girl is beautiful!!!


Just a thought, do you notice the same lightening characteristics when Gator Pride is a pod parent versus a pollen parent?  It would be extremely interesting if in one situation GP were to lighten the colors of the other parent, whereas in another situation the offspring were to express brighter colors.  One would assume this wouldn't happen, as random assortment of gametes for sperm/eggs should be the same, but wouldn't it be something to talk about if a pattern were to emerge. 

[Darkhorse]

I just realized I had an example right under my nose.

I have a Blueberry Thrill that just bloomed for the first time yesterday.  It's Gold Rain x Gator Pride.  The bloom is dark navy with a bright pink edge.  It doesn't seem to have taken anything from its dad, Gold Rain, other than the ability to bloom as a single and a double.  It has Gator Pride's size and richness of color.  See Gold Rain here:

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/43609/

[Nievesgirl]

I just realized I had an example right under my nose.

I have a Blueberry Thrill that just bloomed for the first time yesterday.  It's Gold Rain x Gator Pride.  The bloom is dark navy with a bright pink edge.  It doesn't seem to have taken anything from its dad, Gold Rain, other than the ability to bloom as a single and a double.  It has Gator Pride's size and richness of color.  See Gold Rain here:

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/43609/

I am glad this forum was added also ! Thanks Charlie

This is so interesting about gator pride you info well help me when are start hybridizing
I might get blueberry thrill Jordan let me know if it fades , I saw the parent was gator pride and I assume you could get dark blue and purples when using it for breeding with any flower, Now that I know its only with brightly colored flowers it is very helpful.

[Charlie]

Gator Pride x Cinnamon Girl is beautiful!!!


Just a thought, do you notice the same lightening characteristics when Gator Pride is a pod parent versus a pollen parent? 

This is a topic of discussion among hybridizers that has people on different sides. As far as I know, there is no reason for there to be a difference depending on which is which. Half the genes come from each parent in either case. However, there are those who swear they have detected qualities that are more prevalent when a specific cv is pod parent or vice versa. Of course they never have a sample size large enough to be convincing but one wonders......

[Charlie]

I have a Blueberry Thrill that just bloomed for the first time yesterday.  It's Gold Rain x Gator Pride.  The bloom is dark navy with a bright pink edge.  It doesn't seem to have taken anything from its dad, Gold Rain, other than the ability to bloom as a single and a double.  It has Gator Pride's size and richness of color. 

Yes, that is interesting. Gold Rain is an odd cross with Gator Pride but it allowed the darker purple to come through. Gold Rain did contribute to the bush its well known slow growing habit.
I grew about 50 Blueberry Thrill plants in 2 gallon pots last year, and in the end wish I hadn't. They grew at a snail's pace, never getting very large. Unfortunately, the blooms fade quite a bit, too. Even so it might be useful to hybridize with something that has more vigor and bigger flower size.

Charlie

[Charlie]

I really like that this is a new discussion topic

That is very interesting that gatorpirde serves to lighten the majority of its offspring, especially since it is brightly colored!  The cross with erin rachel is very interesting, even in the picture the coloration is very intense.  Are there multiple offspring between gatorpride and erin rachel in which this happens?

Yes, there are 2 that I have seen so far - both are bright orange, red.

The only observation I can make in regards to the lightening is when crossed with moonstruck, saffron, cinnamon girl, and blue ballerina.  It looks as though these offspring there was a reduction in the amount of red or orange pigment that was being produced.  Its almost as if you see the underlying color without this pigment.  Kinda like seeing the color of leaves change in the fall without chlorophyll.

Yes, I see that now that you point it out. I can't account for it but that seems to be the case.

Its interesting that when crossed with bluebird, those two offspring seem to have more of gatorprides form and color, although the brown one is very interesting. 

It is too bad that it seems as though many of the gator pride offspring have faded and more pastel coloration, especially since gatorpride itself has such bright coloration!  The fact that erin rachel produces vibrant offspring is great news to develop flowers that do not fade in the sun.  I remember there being a cv in the store opening 'flickering flame' that had good color retention.  Since one of 'Flicking flames' parents were 'Heavy metal' do you find that your crosses with 'Heavy metal' also produce highly pigmented offspring?

Not faded, these are all photos of newly opened flowers. They never had more intense color. Interesting, eh?

Erin Rachel is a small, simple flower and although it is beautifully bright is not ideal for hybridizing large flowered, well formed exotic hibiscus. It tends to produce well branched bushes that make lots of small, brightly colored flowers. I had one at the last open house that opened 6 flowers on that day.

Heavy Metal has not been used as much as I should have, but some recent results using it might be instructive. I think I will open another topic and show the offspring there. Thanks for the idea.

I think im going to do some research on color pigment expression in flowers

By all means, Cindy and I are waiting eagerly to learn more of the science behind this.

Charlie

[Darkhorse]

Would love to see the offspring of Heavy Metal, Charlie.  I just got mine in the mail last week.  I had been waiting for it for six months or so.   

That's too bad about BBT.  I ordered it just based on the picture on Dupont's site... they also make you order six plants at once so I had to fill in the blanks because there was really only one or two cvs I knew I wanted from them.  It's growing really slow for me too.  I think I will keep it, though, as like you said I may be able to cross it with something that will help it along.

[helixturnhelix]

Looking into pigmentation in other species of plant, it is interesting that each color type has a different method of obtaining that color. 

Blue flowers seem to produce metalloanthocyanin, which is the same pigment that you see in blue hydrangeas.  It seems that a heavy metal ion is needed to form this complex.  With that ion usually being Fe or Al.  I think you mentioned that you tried to add Iron or Aluminum to the soil of blue ballerina to see if you could get more blue flowers, but to know avail.  This means that most likely blue ballerina does not produce the metalloanthocyanin protein.  It probably produces anthocyanin as its pigment molecule. 

I also found some information about how orange/red flowers are pigmented.  In the species Sandersonia aurantiaca the orange pigment is due to the presence of two different carotenoids, zeaxanthin and cryptoxanthin.  When the flower is forming, it seems as though there is the presence of other pigmented proteins, chlorophyll, Beta carotene and luten.  As the flower matures these pigments are degraded and zeaxanthin and crytoxanthin are produced in abundance.  This is exactly what happens when leaves change color in the fall, only in this case it happens selectively in only the petals.  This makes sense because developmentally petals are simply modified leaves.  If one could keep chlorophyll in petals through maturation, thats how you could eventually make an all green flower.   

Very interesting work, I would think that hibiscus employ similar mechanisms in pigmentation of their flowers.  I need to drive to a university library so I can get access to the full articles. 

AND I look foward to seeing heavy metal's offspring, hopefully we can draw some loose conclusions on what is going on while enjoying their beauty

[Nievesgirl]

here is another Gator pride offspring I found that is a little brighter

Gator Pride x Chads



This what Chads looks like



I am thinking I might try to hybridize Gator pride and lady bug now , or even Heartbreak hotel. I just order Dragon's heart that may be an interesting cross

[Nievesgirl]

I forgot to say that the seedling post is called Curt's Gif from exotic hibiscus its still under evaluation but the colors are stunning.

[Nievesgirl]

I just noticed that the picture did not show
http://exotichibiscus.com/ProductSpecs.cfm?pid=1604