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Author Topic: Genes and Flower Color  (Read 2377 times)
Charlie
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« on: July 05, 2009, 10:34:14 AM »

Another thing to keep in mind is that brown. silver, and blue genes are related in a way that either color can make flowers of either color. In other words crossing 2 brown flowers can result in blue or brown flowers, and crossing 2 blue flowers can result in either blue or brown flowered offspring. One of these days I will write up a description of how blues and browns came to be in hibiscus. They did not exist as of 1900. It is an interesting and somewhat mysterious story.

Charlie
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Darkhorse

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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2009, 01:31:37 PM »

So do the blue/brown/silver genes seem to be dominant?  That is, if the plant has it, it shows up in the phenotype?
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"They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night."  -Edgar Allan Poe
Charlie
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2009, 02:58:01 PM »

No, these colors do not seem to be dominant. I am currently using a red flowered cv that is Saffron x Muffin Man to cross onto. Muffin Man's brown color does not show in this generation but I am looking for browns and blues in the next generation. It has an excellent bush so I am hoping to get interesting colors AND a good bush in the next generation. We shall see.

There are lots of other examples of surprise color results that do not represent the parent's colors, but look back a generation or two or even three and you will find the explanation.

Charlie


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helixturnhelix
Seattle, WA

Posts: 1713



« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2009, 04:14:49 PM »

Hi Kerry and Charlie,

Another thought is not all genes, especially with color pigment, are completely dominant or recessive.  Sometimes you get effects of co dominance or incomplete dominance, in which a pigment is expressed on a gradient OR both pigments are actively expressed giving the appearance of a new color.  An example of this would be if a gene for red and blue were expressed at the same time.  To us the flower would appear purple, but upon closer examination it is actually made up of blue and red pigmented cells, not purple.  It would be interesting to see how many flowers show this effect.  You would prob have to use a compound light microscope to see, but what good scientist doesn't have one of those hanging around Smiley
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Darkhorse

Posts: 892



« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2009, 07:15:35 PM »

Like with Ghost, for example, where do you think the white comes from?  Saffron does have some white.  Is there a white flower a few generations back?


With animals there are ways to test for many genes, along with color genes.  With horses, you can pull about 25 mane hairs (along with the root), send the sample to UC davis, and they can tell you if your horse is homozygous black, bay, etc.  They can also test for certain genetic diseases.  There are still holes, though.  Certain color patterns are still a genetic mystery.  Are there similar tests for plants to determine what color genes they possess?
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"They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night."  -Edgar Allan Poe
helixturnhelix
Seattle, WA

Posts: 1713



« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2009, 08:21:27 PM »

Hi Jordan,

There arent any tests I can think of, not that it can't be done, but because there is no money in it.  I would assume that the testing for horses was developed because of the sport of racing horses.  There is alot of money in knowing the genetic makeup of the prize race horse.  I don't think that there is a big enough market for the development of this test for ornamental plants.

 As far as "Ghost" being all white there are a few possibilities that I can think of.  First it could be that exactly what you stated, 'Saffron' has white, so this lack of pigment was translated into the flower of its offspring, making it white.  Another idea I have is post transcriptional gene silencing is taking place.  It may sound like a mouthful, but it explains why you see those two toned (white and purple) petunias at the nursery.  Post transcriptional gene silencing (we'll abbreviate it as PTGS) occurs when a specific RNA sequence (the precurser for protein formation, including pigment) is degraded by enzymes before it can be translated into the protein that it was encoded to make.  In the case of these petunias, breeders wanted to make deep purple flowers, so they crossed plants that over expressed anthocyanin (the protein that makes flowers purple) hoping to have a more purple flower.  What they found was the offspring was white or had some degree of whitening in it.  In theory it makes sense, cross purple with purple and make more purple.  What they didnt take into account was the RNA transcript to make anthocyanin is double stranded and was produced in great abundance. The plant reconized these transcripts as being foreign (viral RNA).   Plants have a very good method for destroying this ds RNA. First this enzyme called dicer cleaves the long anthocyanin ds RNA in to short strands.  Next these short strands are incorporated in the RNA induced silencing complex (RISC)  After this incorporation, another enzyme destroys the RNA.  This in effect prevents any pigment protein from being produced even though the gene for the protein is functioning normally. 

PTGA could explain why 'Ghost' is white when both of its parents are not.  The plant's genes for pigment may be silenced.  I would be interesting to see what offspring would be produced by this flower and if any are white.  This is one instance where I think backcrossing could be used to figure out why the flowers are white. If it is a recessive gene, then you should see many more offspring share that trait when it is backcrossed to the parents.  If it is PTGA, the offspring may not be white at all.  It is possible that backcrossing it may cause white offspring because of PTGA, but it is unlikely. 

It would be really interesting to cross 'Ghost' with 'Byron Metts' and observe those offspring.  If the same recessive gene is responsible for their white color then the offspring should be all be white.  If they are pigmented it could be possible that PTGA is to cause of the pigment deficiency.  It is also possible if you get pigmented offspring, that the recessive white genes were in different loci in each variety, so one may have a dominant gene in the place that the other is recessive.  By crossing them you produce a heterozygote that has pigment, but is a carrier of the white gene.  Another idea is they have different types of mutations in the pigment producing pathway and when they are crossed you effectively fix that pathway, allowing pigment to be produced.

There are soo many different possibilities as to why 'Ghost' is white.  It is going to take quite a few crosses to see if what gene or mechanism is the cause.  Until then we can just enjoy the flowers Smiley   

I think I might have ranted too much here, and this is more than anyone wanted to know, but this is what 3 years of genetic research and a different medium will do to you  Cheesy

-Chris
 


* Petunia Cascadias Bicolor Fantasy sm.jpg (19.88 KB, 144x144 - viewed 178 times.)
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Darkhorse

Posts: 892



« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2009, 10:52:17 AM »

Chris,

I tried to read your response last night, and had to come back and reread it this morning.  LOL Tongue

You're right, there are tons of reasons...  good idea to cross Ghost with Byron Metts.  Charlie, you should do that as an experiment! 

J
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"They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night."  -Edgar Allan Poe
Nievesgirl

Posts: 938


« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2009, 03:31:38 PM »

No, these colors do not seem to be dominant. I am currently using a red flowered cv that is Saffron x Muffin Man to cross onto. Muffin Man's brown color does not show in this generation but I am looking for browns and blues in the next generation. It has an excellent bush so I am hoping to get interesting colors AND a good bush in the next generation. We shall see.

There are lots of other examples of surprise color results that do not represent the parent's colors, but look back a generation or two or even three and you will find the explanation.
Charlie




I been looking at Cv's pedigrees and seeing so much explainable seedlings as you said look back in the pedigree and you will see where the suprised colors came from.  I notice a lot of CVs are linebred
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~Kerry~
Charlie
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2009, 05:21:10 PM »

Very interesting, Chris. I will cross Ghost with Byron Metts. Many people around the world have made Byron Metts crosses, and the typical result is partial whites or whitening of colors that it was crossed with. For instance, a cross with a red might result in light pinks, and so forth. I haven't kept any of the crosses I made using Byron Metts but there is always next time!

It is convenient for hybridizers to talk about general color groups but that does not really describe what goes on with the genes that ultimately control color. Colors that we see are the result of the production of biochemicals in the flower petals that combine in different ways and interact with the environment in different ways. It becomes a lot more complicated than what we usually think of as crossing red with yellow or one shade of red with another shade, etc. As Chris described, the colors we see are the result of the petals making chemicals like anthocyanins (red, purple, blue) and caretenoids (red, orange, yellows). No doubt there is a lot more to making the amazing flower colors we see but there is little to no research on Hibiscus rosa-sinensis flower colors to draw from so we extrapolate from research into other flower species.

In any case, hibiscus hybridizers have not had a very sophisticated understanding of the genes they are working with. Instead we use random crosses and "intuitive" crosses, and some basic stategies such as crossing large flowers with other large flowers in the attempt to find more large flowers. Another example strategy might be to cross flowers with white eyes to other white eyed varieties to get more white eyes. This type of approach works a little better than making random crosses but in the end we still have to grow a lot of seeds to get what we want. It is true that experience gives each hybridizer some insights into the likely results to expect when using specific parents but even so the biggest surprises often come from crosses that are not expected to yield surprises.

I welcome a biologists point of view and hope we can find ways in the future to determine more exactly what we are doing and how to go more directly to where we want to go!

Charlie



 
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helixturnhelix
Seattle, WA

Posts: 1713



« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2009, 10:30:07 PM »

Jordan:  Sorry about the lateness of the post, I hope it made sense Smiley

Charlie:  That is interesting that the result of alot of Byron Metts crosses result in the lightning of pigments.  This sounds like the white gene in this cv might be dominant because a cross of a red and white that makes a pink flower is the classic example of incomplete dominance.  The problem with using this CV, if it has a pretty dominant phenotype, is you would decrease your probability of producing offspring that are bright colored and fade very little.  The splotching effect maybe interesting to get, but making a more pale version of current CVs would not be desirable imo.  I am very interested to see the offspring of the cross 'Ghost' and 'Byron Metts' I think based on those offspring would could make some pretty educated guesses as to what mechanism for this pigment deficiency would be. 

I was also thinking about another cross you did that yielded interesting results.  Looking at two offspring (that I know of) of 'dragons breath.' 'Dragons Heart' seems to be a dark version of HOMH, and 'Black Dragon' which looks like a darker version of 'Dragons breath'.   Both these CVs both have the common parent, 'Dragons Breath'  When this cv is crossed with other flowers that are pigmented from caretenoids (red, orange, yellow) do you see more vibrant/pigmented offpring like Dragon's heart and Black dragon?  If this is true, it might be a good CV to use not only for its unique form, but also to deepen the color of red, orange or yellow flowers.  If it does indeed have some sort of gene or promoter which increases caretenoid production.  You also describe the cv orville davis as doing something similar in fallen hero.  These two CVs would be good to use to see if they can make darker and more pigmented offspring on a regular basis.   

I am looking forward to getting a 'Dragons heart'  so that I can cross to 'Saffron' to see if it has any effect on the number of offspring that express the caretenoid pigments.  I wish I had more room and better weather to make these crosses and look at the offspring's characteristics.  Its too bad you must wait 1-3 years to see the results of your labor.

As usual always interesting Smiley

-Chris
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