Hibiscus Nomenclature

[1618]

Charlie,

I've become a little confused about the Mango Madness that you used as parent in some of your hybrids like Silver Dragon. Was that Mango Madness your creation or someone elses?

Ian

[helixturnhelix]

Hi Ian,

I believe that it is an older hybrid from Florida.  I know that recently it changed on ihs, but ihs seems to always have bugs and problems with giving correct information.  I know that there are a few HVH hybrids which are listed totally wrong on there. 

[1618]

Which raises another question in my mind! On the IHS base the parentage for Acapulco Gold is given as Georgia's Pearl x Rainbow Christie but on the HVH website it is given as Fifth Dimension x Georgias Pearl? Can anyone see any other inconsistencies?

Ian

[Charlie]

Ian, the Mango Madness I used in hybridizing (and posted some photos of here on the forum recently) was hybridized by Gary Schneider in Florida. An old email I have from 1997 stated that it came in 4th place in the AHS Hibiscus of the Year awarded in 1997.

Acapulco Gold is recorded in our internal nomenclature as being 5th Dimension x Georgia's Pearl. I did use Rainbow Christi a lot for a couple of years so I just looked over the photos of the many crosses I have made with Acapulco Gold to see if R Christi traits or 5th Dim traits are obvious in any of them. One recent seedling is a cross of Acapulco Gold with Stolen Kiss and the result shows strong 5th Dimension influence in the colors, particularly the silver. Below is a photo of this seedling.

Dealing with all the data a nomenclature contains is a tough job to get perfectly correct. I really appreciate the valiant efforts of those who have attempted it for hibiscus since the 1950's. However, no one seems to have perfected it yet so we decided to keep our own nomenclature of HVH seedlings as accurately as possible and await the day a world-wide database can absorb the information efficiently via a spreadsheet or database file.

Charlie

[1618]

Many thanks Charlie for the information and clarification! Since becoming involved in managing the IHS database I have learned a lot about the hibiscus nomenclature. Nevertheless I am sure that there is still a lot I could learn from your extensive experience with these plants! The IHS database now is getting close to 14,000 records so it is a massive undertaking indeed to manage it. There are many obstacles to creating a really good general hibiscus database and one of them is that many hybridizers are not providing information about their hybrids to one central nomenclature authority. In this sense it seems to me that HVH has been the most exemplary among commercial nurseries in terms of providing information about its cvs. If only they were all so helpful!

In any case if anyone can find any errors, problems, or inconsistencies in the IHS database I would be happy to hear about them and to correct them if at all possible.

Ian

[Cindy]

Wow, Ian, I feel like I've been really flakey since I STILL haven't gotten our HVH pics to you! Thank you for being so understanding about it! But you have made it so, so, so much easier to register our cvs by letting us submit one large spreadsheet at a time.

Now that the new store is open and we get a little break from the constant heavy shipping, my goal is to get all the pics to you by the end of January.  And of course, then I'll have new cvs to send you too!  Yikes!  It's endless!

Thank you for these very kind words!!!!!!! I'll try to get the pics to you and be more deserving of them!
Cindy

[1618]

Randy Cox recently related a story to me about the cv "Crimson Ray". He said that way back around 1996 HVH was distributing a cv by that name which the Cox's acquired and liked and used subsequently in some of their hybridizing. However another similar but different cv had already been given the name "Crimson Ray" earlier so they were unable to enter it in shows as "Crimson Ray". The Cox's therefore christened the HVH cv "Improved Crimson Ray" which is listed in the IHS database.

Is there any chance Charlie that you could tell me who the hybridizer was or what the parents were of the HVH "Crimson Ray" aka "Improved Crimson Ray"?

Ian

[Charlie]

Ian, this was an unusual situation. I received wood labeled Crimson Ray from Larry Johnson, a Florida commercial hibiscus specialist back in the 1990's, now retired. I had no reason to believe that it was not the original Crimson Ray and have never been convinced that it wasn't. I grafted and sold this variety for several years and lo and behold it started winning awards at Florida hibiscus shows where they were calling it Improved Crimson Ray. I have no idea why they did not call it the original Crimson Ray and as far as I know no other similar flower surfaced later or exists now to be called the original. To be fair, Crimson Ray was a Judges Favorite cv going all the way back to 1980 and perhaps some of the judges in the late 1990's knew it well enough to make this call about the Improved Crimson Ray.

My thought is that I did receive the original and once it was returned to Florida as a well grafted plant from healthy wood in had mysteriously "improved" but that the improvement was due to being grown better than what they were accustomed to. This happens more often than people realize. Flowers can vary quite a bit depending on how the plant is grown. They won't change colors dramatically of course but the shade of color, markings, and the size and texture of the bloom can be different depending on how the plant is grown.

Anyway, Crimson Rays was never an HVH cultivar and was collected from a reputable source in Florida. Unless somebody can come up with what they call the original Crimson Ray for direct comparison, the Improved CR and the original CR are the same based on the info I have at this time. Maybe somebody has a photo of what they call the original - that would be a help possibly to establish that they were indeed different. Or you could contact Larry J and see if he has any info on it although 17 years has passed and he may not recall anything about it.

Still leaves you with a mystery but its the best I can do at this end.

Not quite the end of the story. I checked my email going back to the 90's and found an early version of the AmHS Nomenclature kept by the nomenclature officer Jeri Grantham. Here is the data listed for the original Crimson Ray:

"CRIMSON RAY","","","Yellow","Sgl","Reg","8-9","Brube-Acres","H","FL","Meteor","Aunt Dot","Y","COLOR:  Bright Yellow With Distinct Cardinal Red Eye, Veins And Zone Ÿ"+chr(10)+"White, Style Red, Stigmas Yellow.","COLOR:  Bright Yellow (Y-13-A),With Distinct Cardinal Red Eye (R-53-A), Ÿ"+chr(10)+"Veins White (W-155-A), Zone White (W-155-A), Style Cardinal Red (R-53-A) Ÿ"+chr(10)+"To Red (R-49-B), Stigmas Yellow (YO-16-A).","BLOOM:  Fully Overlapped, Medium Texture, Ruffled, Tufted, Crepey, Ÿ"+chr(10)+"Slightly Reflexed, Veined, Holds Color.","LEAF:  Thick Foliation, Medium Size Texture Color, Wavey, Orbiculate, Ÿ"+chr(10)+"Incised, Apiculate.","BUSH:  Tall, Upright, Bushy, Vigorous, Well Branched, Shade Or Sun, Ÿ"+chr(10)+"Graft.","NOTE:  Judges' Favorite Bloom 1980 Show Season.","PREVIOUS NOMENCLATURE ENTRY:  79,13 87"

Please let me know if you find out anything.

Charlie