Ideal Temps for Pods?

[Angela]

Hello all!  Sorry if this has been discussed before but I'm a total newbie. The HVH website has turned me into an instant addict...  I have only ordered two so far but my wish list is huge!
My boyfriend has a few hibiscus on the property and I have tried to cross them with some "Cajuns" I had bought from a couple big box stores... the pods have ALWAYS fallen off.  I have read a lot of posts about hybridizing tips so this last time I tried putting pollen on flowers that had just opened. So far the two I pollenated have not dropped but I've been so paranoid that I've been bringing them inside every night. 
I live at an elevation of 2,200 ft so it's been getting down to almost 60˚ at night, I'm just wondering how cold is too cold for seed pods?
I realize they could have fallen off before because of unsuccessful pollination so maybe it was because of timing? It can't be due to drying out because it is almost a constant 90% humidity here with a lot of cloud cover. It rarely gets much hotter than 72˚ during the day.  I'm just wondering why I'm having a problem.... or is it always difficult to get pods that hold?

[Charlie]

In Hawaii you should not have a problem with cold. In your exact location you should be able to get a lot of successful pods. I'm envious of 60 to 72 low/high temps! Couldn't be much better than that....Most likely the varieties you tried are not seed setters or you used pollen that was too old. Both pollen and open flower should be as fresh as possible for best results.

Charlie

[helixturnhelix]

Those are perfect temps for setting seeds, I have to agree with Charlie that you probably don't have good seed setters.  Which Cajun CVs do you have? 

As for pollen, I've done a bit of my own studies on hibiscus pollen and I have found that collected and stored pollen works fine as long as that CV has hot pollen.  I am currently growing some seeds that I harvested after using pollen that was about 6 months old.  The way most people thought of storing pollen was by refridgerating or freezing it, which I suspected would likely break down some of the proteins in hibiscus pollen making it not viable. I stored it in a dark place with moderate temps and humidity, pretty much the conditions in winE cellars and using pollen stored under these conditions have collected and germinated seeds.  I have a protocol if anyone is interested.

Hula girl is one that you might want to try as it sets seed very well and is pretty common in Hawaii.  Good luck and let us know how it works out!

[Angela]

Thanks for your response!
Last night it only got down to around 60 but in winter it gets down to 50.
I was thinking maybe it was too humid here... it dews every night.  I live on the Kona side so there is VERY little wind (you can just imagine all the problems we have with mold and fungus!)  We live up in the forest so we are constantly battling pests... every garden has its challenges!
Funny you mentioned Hula Girl, I just put one in the ground last week just as a token common "Hawaiian" plant to have around.  You would think here in Hawaii, you would see many exotic hibiscus but that's just not the case (at least here in Kona).  Once I bought a cajun and saw how nice the bloom was, it was all over, I would never buy another regular ol' hibiscus again.  My search for more was what brought me to HVH.

[Angela]

Here are the two I have used pollen from.  I'm guessing the red might be Vermillion Queen (), my boyfriend bought it and put it in the ground five years ago.  I tried to get all four flowers in the shot but they were facing different directions.  As you may notice it's kinda leggy! Which my boyfriend prefers... he doesn't like bushes because it blocks the view of the palms.
I have no idea what the purple is. Any ideas?

[Angela]

Here are the ones I have tried pollinating... 
1. Sold as City Slicker
2. Sold as Stolen Kiss
3. Two different plants sold as Bienevue and Bon Temps. They are the ones that are holding onto the pods... so far.

[helixturnhelix]

Hi Angela,

Those all look like the right CVs to me, so I think the tags are right on.  The red one looks just like Vermillion Queen and I think that is the only all red CV Dupont grows.  There is a newer one called red planet which has some white swirling which I do not see in your pics.  It looks like it could use a hard prune, which will promote a more full bush and allow better viewing of the palm trees!  VQ is one that needs to be pruned to create a nice full bush. As far as the purple one, I think if I see pics of the bush and maybe other pics of the bloom I can figure it out.  

All those CVs you listed can set seed.  Stolen Kiss, City Slicker, Bienevue and Bon Temps all set seed and have decent pollen.  Humidity is good to have to allow the pollen to form "tubes" to the ovaries and fertilize them.  One thing you might want to do is remove the calux from around the seed pod, since you have high humidity and fungal problems.  That will keep water from settling around the pod, promoting fungal growth.  Crossing any of these CVs to Hula Girl will bring some nice vigor to your seedlings and in being a yellow garden variety cultivar, you will likely have some nice keepers in your first generation of crosses.  Of your CVs listed I would cross HG to City slicker, and Bienevue, since both those CVs have smaller and not as strong bushes.  They could benefit greatly from Hula Girl's nice full bush.  

For hybridizing there are a few CVs from HVH that I would recommend starting with.  First Creme de Cacao would be a must have.  Its a simple brown flower, but produces some amazing offspring in all color spectrums.  Most of all it often passes its great bush to its offspring.  If you search Creme de Cacao in the HVH search you can see some of its hybrids.  

Winter Lights is another CV that I have tons of seedlings from and they look to be very vigorous.  What is nice about this CV is it is 1/2 garden variety (P's Purple) which gives nice solid bushes and vigorous growth.  

One that I haven't tried yet but I will probably soon is Sparkling Water.  That CV is supposed to be very vigorous and has genes from P's purple and the beautifully colored Vin Extrodinaire.  


Sounds like you live in a beautiful place!  I would really like to spend some time living in Hawaii doing some sort of ecology or marine biology type work while there.  

[Angela]

Thank you so much for the wealth of information helix... sorry I couldn't see you profile to find out your real name!
As far as pruning the VQ, my boyfriend won't have it... he hates bushes... he likes them all leggy so you can see through them. I think that ten foot monster should have been pruned years ago and kept around 2-3 ft. high but what ever... it's his plant lol.  I have cut a few branches off but it never comes back from where I cut.... it dies/rots all the way back to a main stem. I'm guessing because it is so humid here.

Here is a link to some of my garden pics....  Chariots of Fire and Cherry Glow's new home.   http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=29666&st=0

Thanks for the confirmation on the cv's here is an example of mislabeling...  I think it is actually Pride of Arcadia. 

[Charlie]

Angela, Stolen Kiss is a variety that I have used successfully as a seed setter so something else is causing the problem. The most common reason is temperatures outside the norm for seed setting but we have probably ruled that out. Fungus resulting from too much humidity in my greenhouse during periods of rain has also been a problem and may be what is preventing successful seed formation for you.

During such times of high humidity I try to remove the flower (petals and staminal column) as soon as possible, leaving just the calyx and developing seed pod still attached to the plant. You do this by grasping the closing flower and very gently pulling it away from calyx. If it resists don't force it but if you time it right you can remove the petals several hours before they would naturally fall off. Doing this has reduced the problems I have had with overly high humidity.

Next step is to give a little shake to the calyx to remove any liquid that has collected at the base of the flower. This helps the developing seed pod dry out and prevents fungus from getting started.

Pollen exposed to wind and sun will dry out and become useless, so use fresh pollen whenever possible.

Charlie

[Charlie]

Chris, your pollen experiment is interesting. I'm curious whether you did that in Washington or Colorado?

Charlie

[helixturnhelix]

Hey Charlie,

I actually started in Colorado, a few of the seeds I gave you I used this technique.  All the seeds I got in WA were made using old, stored pollen.  I didnt get many seeds last year, maybe a total of 30, but they were more controlled crosses.  I have two seedlings right now that are Muffin Man x Raindrop, that were pollinated using Raindrop pollen that was several months old.  My Raindrop only bloomed in winter for me (November I believe), then got a werid fungus and had to be cut back.  Muffin Man was one that I got from you at the end of May, and didn't bloom for me till June, making this pollen about 6 months old.  Granted I didnt get a ton of seeds from using this pollen, unless Muffin Man is just one that doesnt produce alot of seeds. 

I wanted to wait till I got viable seeds before I posted anything about it, but these seedlings are doing well enough that I view it as a success!

[helixturnhelix]

Thank you so much for the wealth of information helix... sorry I couldn't see you profile to find out your real name!
As far as pruning the VQ, my boyfriend won't have it... he hates bushes... he likes them all leggy so you can see through them. I think that ten foot monster should have been pruned years ago and kept around 2-3 ft. high but what ever... it's his plant lol.  I have cut a few branches off but it never comes back from where I cut.... it dies/rots all the way back to a main stem. I'm guessing because it is so humid here.

Here is a link to some of my garden pics....  Chariots of Fire and Cherry Glow's new home.   http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=29666&st=0

Thanks for the confirmation on the cv's here is an example of mislabeling...  I think it is actually Pride of Arcadia. 

Angela,

That is POA, ive gotten some Cajuns in Colorado from that same grower and a few were mislabled.  But they were also sold as 4 inch annuals so they were only like 3 bucks, so I cant complain too much LOL.

I was looking at your pics of your garden, and I am pretty jealous.  I would love to have palms, orchids, anthuriums, hibiscus and cycads in my yard!  That is too awesome!!!  I think your BF would warm up to hibiscus if you try out some of the more unusual ones.  You should pick up an African Princess and see if he likes that one.  It has a good pedigree for hybridizing (CCacao x Midnight blue) has more palmate leaves, AND is a really unusual gold, brown, and green CV with a hot pink eye.  I wish I had a yard to grow this one, but I have a feeling its too vigorous for my indoor growing space.  My brother is into carnivorous plants and his gf's dad has a palm and cycad nursery so not really keen on the "pretty flowers." I did show the some pics of the more unusual CVs like African Princess and they really liked those. 

[Angela]

Thanks Charlie for the info!  I have been bringing the ones with the pods into the house at night because I thought it was getting too cold (funny how 60˚ can feel cold to you after living here for a few years, I thought it was colder until I looked at the thermometer) but I think I will continue to bring them in to keep them out of the nightly dew. 

[Angela]

Chris, it is actually my boyfriend Dean's garden and I am a very lucky girlfriend to have a guy into rare palms and aroids. I have planted many things in the garden... lots of anthuriums, ti plants and vireyas (and now hibiscus!).  I have grown a lot of tis from seed and I'm still waiting on some anthuriums I have grown from seed to getter bigger... they are incredibly slow!
When I lived in San Diego I tried to grow tropical plants and would be heart broken every winter... it is awesome to grow anthuriums outside.

Don't get me wrong, Dean loves hibiscus... he loves the flowers...  not the bush part!!
He is the one who bought VQ and that purple one to begin with... 
Because of those plants I started looking into hibiscus and when I found the HVH site, I got bit by the hibiiscus bug big time!!!

[Ernest]

Hi Angela. Thanks for the link to your garden photos. It reminds me that I must get back to the Big Island soon. Once my wife and I discovered the Kona coast we have hardly wanted to go anywhere else. The Mauna Kea Hotel is our home away from home. We've probably stayed there 15-20 times. Best beach in the islands and first rate golf course and tennis facility as well.  Of course the island offers a lot more and we have explored just about all of it.

Have you been to the arboretum on Kauai? They have an incredible collection of palms as well as most other tropical plants. It was after our first visit to the island that I decided I wanted our yard to look as much like Hawaii as is possible here in southern California. I started out with plumerias, gingers, proteas, and heliconias. I didn't think much about hibiscus since it seemed to be mainly grown as a hedge on the island. Once I saw the exotic blooms that naturally changed.

I'm looking forward to seeing pictures of your hibiscus plants as your collection grows.

[Angela]

Ernest, feel free to look us up when you visit the Big Island.  It would be fun to give a little tour.  There are lots of private mind-blowing gardens on the Hilo side. 
I've only been to Kauai once and didn't go to the arboretum... I'll have to check it out if there is a next time.  I've only been on the Big Island for four years and I still don't know the names of all the different areas...  a local will say "I live in..  blah blah blah"  (Insert Hawaiian name of your choice) and I will have no idea where it is.
One thing about living on the side of a volcano at an elev. of 2,200 ft. is that I have not been able to grow one of my favorite flowers of all time... plumeria!!!   You can pick plumeria from the side of the road anytime, but I still want to grow my own. Thank goodness tabernaemontana, gardenia, night blooming jasmine and champaca grow well here!   Ooops sorry.. I think I've gone off topic!
But yes, there are a lot of boring hibiscus grown as hedges here. My boyfriend's Vermillion Queen is what got me googling exotic hibiscus...  and it was this thread on Palm Talk that lead to my discovery of HVH (I posted a link to HVH's website).
http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=30196

[farmer d]

Now this thread is getting really really good.  My wife and I just got back form the Big Island late Oct.  It really is surprisingly one of the best islands and always off the radar for a lot of Hawaii visitors.  Incredible beaches, snorkeling, and beautiful tropical scenery.  One time we spent half a day at Akaka Falls SP just checking out all the incredible plants and foliage - the mosquitos liked that a lot too. 

We found a great plumeria nursery/farm off highway 11 near Honaunau.  Love eating the mangos on the side of the highway that have just fallen off the trees on the way there. 

Manini'Owali is one spectacular beach and if you want a totally quiet private beach check out Maumae just north of Mauna Loa Beach Resort.  We almost stayed in Mauna Lani but found a ridiculous condo deal in Waikoloa for $100/nt.

Can't wait to go back but next time we're heading to Kauai.  Still our favorite island.  The Garden Island lives up to it's name - so green that you can smell it in the air.

Farmer D   

[Ernest]

Angela, thanks for the invitation. We may try to get over there sometime late next year. The arboretum on Kauai is definitely a must see for you if you like palms. I'm surprised to hear that you can't grow plumeria there. I just assumed it would grow anywhere on the island.

Darren, the other thing we like about the beach at the Mauna Kea Hotel is the snorkeling. The snorkeling along the two arms of rocks that enclose the bay is as good as any you can get on most of the excursions and the price is right--you can rent snorkels and fins right there on the beach. Doesn't hurt that there is also a full service bar right on the sand and a large patio area where you can get lunch. You are so right about Kauai. If you haven't already done so take the helicopter tour of the remote sections of the island--truly spectacular.

[Angela]

Uh oh... now it's waay off topic...  I don't want to get in trouble already.. I just joined the forum a little while ago!
I've been on the Big Island for four years and probably only snorkeled 4 or 5 times... that's what happens I guess when you have to work a full time job and have gardening to do!  Yes things may grow a little easier here... but so do the weeds!!!  If you don't keep on top of it, your whole garden will be full of weeds over your head!

[Angela]

Well since I'm so off topic anyway here are links to two more of my passions... anthuriums and tis..
http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=29662&st=0

http://www.palmpedia.net/forum/showthread.php?20-The-Colors-of-Cordylines-(The-Ti-Plant)

The ti thread is long.. if you do go there I'd go to the last page and work backward lol!

Okay I promise... I'm done posting off topic links... I'll behave from now on 

[Angela]

I've had some pods just fall off that were younger than the ones I pollinated... they are still hanging on... I'm so excited!    This is the longest I've had them hold on.