Kontos

[roadrunner]

Charlie do you know if Kontos loses its effectiveness if not used fairly soon after mixing? The reason I ask is that a small number of my plants continue having some mite problems after nearly 3 months on Kontos at 7 to 10 day treatment intervals. Due the differences in the rate at which the containers dry out between waterings some of my plants have been treated with Kontos solutions that were up to 5 days old. I know it is recommended that some insecticides for example Neem oil should be used shortly after mixing. Do you know if this applies to Kontos?

Thanks,
dave

[helixturnhelix]

Hi Dave,

It is my understanding Kontos is a Ketoenole (an alcohol) derivative that targets the digestive tract of insects that ingest it.  It is my guess that when you add it to  water it interacts with the water molecules and becomes active and only when it is transported in the phloem and xylem of the plant can it be used.   Given that it is an alcohol, it probably is pretty stable in its aqueous (mixed with water) form.  I would maybe try increasing your concentration of  kontos on those CVs that are still having problems.  They may not "drink" as deeply as your other CVs and need a higher concentration in order to reach the proper effective dose in their phloem and xylem.

I would also try spraying those CVs with problems with hot soapy water on a weekly basis until the problem goes away.  For me, keeping my plants clean with bi monthly soapy water baths and quarantining new arrivals has worked well in eliminating my mite problem.  Good luck!

[Charlie]

We've found that increasing the dose a little takes care of problematic plants. With 10 day intervals you are likely to get small, limited outbreaks fairly often so you could also increase the frequency. I think the goal is to experiment until you get the desired result with the least amount of chemical used.

Charlie

[farmer d]

Hi Folks,

Glad this is being talked about.  I did have to increase my dosage per plant being they are outdoors I thought it would have been the other way around but I was wrong.

My question may be a bit naive but I was wondering if pests can become immune to Kontos like other insecticides?

Farmer D

[helixturnhelix]

Hi Darren,

I would guess its only a matter of time until there is some mite that has some mutation or gene that allows it to survive drinking kontos laced sap.  With smaller organisms they seem to adapt to insecticides at a faster rate than larger more complex ones. 

There is a huge problem with white flies becoming resistant to insecticides.  Imidacloprid , I think is one of the more recent resistances.  Its all about staying one step ahead of the insects.  This is where the advantage to physical or mechanical insect control is beneficial because insects can't develop resistances to those treatments.  Cindy's spider mite baths is an example of this, even if a spidermite is resistant to a specific type of insecticide, it will still die if submerged it hot soapy water.   This is why I try all types of mechanical or biological pest removal, and only use insecticides as a last resort, I want the last resort to keep working!

You can think of it the same way antibiotic resistance develops, but on a longer time scale, hope this helps!

[roadrunner]

Thanks Charlie and Chris,

I'm already using a slightly higher than recommended dose of Kontos. The hot soapy bath treatment would be a major undertaking for me because of some back issues and the size of many of my plants. I do use Safer soap rotated with horticultural oil and even Neem oil from time to time as well as the old standby of rinsing the plants off with a strong jet of water. The spider mites have been dramatically fewer since I started the Kontos treatments and the whitefly infestation is totally gone.

Our extended weather forecast shows our first hint of winter with low temps of mid 30s will be coming this Saturday so the dreaded major move of my plants inside will begin in earnest today. I had been doing  few at a time each day for the past week as more sun has been increasing in my south facing windows but that will need to be stepped up. Part of the process has been to give each plant a thorough spraying with the Safer soap including the pot and water blasting the saucer the plant sits in case of hitch-hiking mites. Maybe mixing the Safers in hot water will increase its effectiveness. Unfortunately the sun still isn't low enough to allow enough sunlight into the 3 southfacing windows where many of my plants will be jammed. Darn, I needed 2 more weeks.  Last year at this time I had around 70 plants, now it's over 90. This should be interesting. Charlie I'll post some pics if this all works out.

Sorry for the rambling post. Maybe I should wait til I'm fully awake before posting.

dave

[Darkhorse]

I use Kontos and love it, but take an extra measure to help with problem cvs and decrease the probability of developing a resistance in my mite population.  I feed Kontos once a week @ 1/8 tsp/gallon.  The day before each Kontos feeding, I thoroughly hose each of my plants.  Take care to wash the upper and undersides of each leaf.  The hosing keeps the dust and mites from taking hold (even without Kontos).  With a good blast from the hose, I've found that soapy water isn't necessary.  If I can drown that one mite with the genetic mutation for Kontos resistance before he/she has two hundred kids, then all is well and I live to die another day. 

[farmer d]

This is one area where in ground has a disadvantage as far as hosing off or soaping off spider mites.

Man I would love to spray all my plants with the hose but they are so big now the amount of water that would go in the soil would be an issue - you think? (especially going into cooler weather months).  It would really be hard to get around my plants backsides that are growing up against my brick wall and get the underside of leaves as well as the top sides without a lot of water drenching the soil.  Leads me to think of changing out all of my soil to palm/cactus mix but the sun prone areas will dry out way to fast in summer then.

Does the soapy water being absorbed into the soil have negative impacts for the plant as well as the soil ecosystem?

At least the cooler weather will slow down their reproduction and let me really put them on the brink...

Farmer D

[roadrunner]

Charlie do you know why the Kontos needs to be applied so frequently to remain effective while other systemics like the Bayer and Greenlight Tree & Shrub products can be effective for 6 months or longer? I find that the need to appy Kontos at 7 to 10 day intervals to be very disappointing considering how expensive it is, and I realize the other two are not miticides.

dave

[blupit007]

Dave,

 I have been using Kontos for almost a year now on all my potted plants.  I had major mite issues before.  It took a while for the Kontos to kick in.  I got rid of them eventually, but them they came back just as winter was setting in, and I thought that the Kontos wore off.  But actually, as the air temp decreased it caused my plants not to drink up the water with the Kontos in it as quickly.  So I upped the dose for a few weeks to knock the mites out.  Then I was able to go back to the regular dose of 1/8th tsp per gallon.  I have been mite free since.

Charlie.  I wanted to ask, is it ok to keep them on this feeding every week forever?

[helixturnhelix]

This is one area where in ground has a disadvantage as far as hosing off or soaping off spider mites.

Man I would love to spray all my plants with the hose but they are so big now the amount of water that would go in the soil would be an issue - you think? (especially going into cooler weather months).  It would really be hard to get around my plants backsides that are growing up against my brick wall and get the underside of leaves as well as the top sides without a lot of water drenching the soil.  Leads me to think of changing out all of my soil to palm/cactus mix but the sun prone areas will dry out way to fast in summer then.

Does the soapy water being absorbed into the soil have negative impacts for the plant as well as the soil ecosystem?

At least the cooler weather will slow down their reproduction and let me really put them on the brink...

Farmer D

Hi Darren,

Typically dish soap contain a phosphate based detergent and various fragrances.  Environmentally speaking the most concern about soaps exist because they are phosphorous based, which when washed into the drain increases the phosphorous concentration of the treated effluent into which ever body of water it drains to.  Phosphorous is considered a limiting nutrient in most water bodies and increases in this nutrient, causes algal blooms and leads to degradation of water quality.  Compared to the amount of fertilizer that you use on a weekly basis, the amount of phosphorous in the soapy water you use is probably isn't going to hurt the soil ecosystem more than heavy fertilizer applications.  I too was concerned about the extra additives that they use in soap, so when I spray my plants down once a month, I use a biodegradable soap with no scents added.  The mechanism of soap killing insects is physical, so as long as it is bubbly it should work fine.  Hopefully this was helpful

Kristen, as with most pesticides, I would use it liberally.  If you no longer see any mites, I do not see any problems with no longer applying Kontos and just doing weekly mite checks on you plants.  Only when you see a problem, you can reapply Kontos, this saves money and reduces the chance of decreasing the effectiveness of this pesticide.  I have found the hot soapy water to be an effect means to get rid of mites, although more labor intensive than watering with Kontos.     

[Maureenpm00]

Helix - can you tell me how exactly you spray with hot soapy water?  How  hot is water? How much and what type of soap can I use?  how often do i do this, do i saturate leaves and soil? ETC  any details would be really helpful to me.  I had mites over the summer and had to keep trapsing all the plants in and out of the house to get a bath to drown them.  tks.

[blupit007]

Thanks Chris.  I figured that I would maybe stop the Kontos now that it is too cold outside for them to live and be transported inside.  I did use the soap as you suggested on those other plants and it worked great!  No more mites after one app, although I did water blast them several times...

[Bart]

Hey Everyone, it's been a while since I've posted anything to the forum. I found this string very interesting as I've not used Kontos (can't find it locally and I hate ordering on the web). I, for the first time in my life, have batted whiteflies all year (since June) and with little progress. I've used Safari all summer yet they still come. I've also sprayed Pyrithrins- Tempo SC- with B Cyfluthrin and other stuff I can't spell, Talstar P- Bifenthrin 7.9% and I've also been spraying Avid (first year that I've had no Spider Mites to deal with), Acephate and Spinosad.

Now, one would think that a hardcore arsenal like the above would have, not only gotten rid of the Whiteflies but, I'm surprised there's any people left in my neighborhood to talk to. It's now cold enough most nights to bring the plants inside and I do.  They have had those 45degree nights they were left out, due to our friendly weather forecasters being off a bit on their evening lows as well as my travel schedule and my being away on those nights the plants would have been brought into the garage.  When they come in, they always go back out the next morning and that's two fold. I want them to soak up all the natural sun they can and (the real reason) I'm increasing the size of my grow room as I have far exceeded the capacity through both clones and acquisition.

The real issue here is the fact that, all plants are now going to be housed inside one grow-room and much closer proximity than when they were scattered about outside. The whiteflies have caused much damage already, to the point they have spread disease to the other plants. I am finding a lot of black spots and black veins on some leaves. Most plants have all but defoliated (in great part due to the stresses I am putting other through right now, at least until my new grow- Room is completed.

Now, for those of you who have read through the boredom,  I need to know a fix to the whitefly issue.  I've never tried any type of soap mixture, other than the bucket of soapy water I place the leaves in that have dropped or been pulled from the plants. I have 18 CV's and approx 90 or so plants. The new plants I ordered from Charlie has been stricken with the most damage but I've not lost any (plants that is...they are all but naked at this point) Hot Pepper and Island Queen has faired the best but that's now about over as they still have leaves for the insects to live on. The cold and closeness of the current situation is taking its toll on them as well.

I will be cutting the plants back in order to try to get some clones rooted from my new plants but if I don't rid the plants of the whiteflies! I'm not sure how things will look on the other side of winter. These are very nasty and tough creatures. I'll get my computer out (currently on iPad) and post some picks I have taken throughout this nightmare of a summer. In stating that, and although I've had issues, I've still managed to see some extremely beautiful blooms.

Bart

PS...Charlie, I'm getting ready to place an order. In that order will be enough giberillic (sp) acid concentrate to make up several gallons of Wake-up spray. I've got to start the mending process.

[Charlie]

Sorry to hear about the whitefly problem, Bart. Many people have tried in vain to "spray" away a whitefly infestation and it rarely works. They are immune to many pesticides and are very clever in their survival techniques. Their main trick is to inhabit other plants in the area during the time you make the hibiscus too toxic for their liking. They will live on weeds and many other species of plants and then return to the hibiscus after you have sprayed or after the Safari wears off.

Now that you are moving them indoors you have an opportunity to get rid of the whiteflies. The cold winter weather in Kentucky will kill off any remaining whiteflies outdoors so if you can get rid of the ones on the indoor hibiscus you can start next spring free of whiteflies.

Safari does kill them. You either did not use enough or you washed it out of the pot before the plant could absorb it. I can't tell you how much to use because I do not know the size of the pots or the size of the plants. However, you should double the amount you were using before and you should re-apply it a second time after 2 weeks. It is also very important to allow the pots to dry down after you have applied the Safari. The technique is to spread the Safari on the surface of the soil, and then slowly and carefully use a watering can to water over the Safari so it dissolves and moves into the potting mix. Do not use so much water that you wash it out of the pot - use a saucer under each pot so that the plant can re-absorb any water that flows out.

Remember, the Safari is very water soluble and is on a carrier substance that does not dissolve. Once you pour water over the Safari the active ingredient will wash into the soil and the carrier substance will be left behind.

Since your plants have lost a lot of leaves they will not absorb water or Safari as fast as they would with a full canopy of leaves. You have to be patient and allow enough time for the Safari to work. The best strategy is to re-apply it after 2 weeks and then a third time after another 2 weeks. It will work if you keep a constant supply of a sufficient amount of Safari in the plant for a couple of months.

Charlie